Iran F-14's musta flown recently!

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:05 am

67Cougar wrote:

There is a difference between arrogance and confidence. The 3 dozen or so current AF, ANG, AFRES, and USN fighter pilots I know and have spoken with all have stated an eagerness to test their skills. After all, isn't that what fighter pilots are supposed to do? Is that arrogance, or confidence in their abilities, training, and equipmet?

Don't get me wrong -- as I wrote above, I have every confidence that militarily the US could defeat the Iranian military. You're right, we do have superior equipment, training, and tactics.

Arrogance, however, is what gets you in trouble. That's the belief that, because of those superior equipment, training, and tactics, that you are invincible and infallible. Unfortunately, I see that a lot out of Americans (both inside and out of the military). Just as that was the downfall of so many empires in the past, I see that as the downfall of the "American Empire" of the present. Don't forget that it was only 100 years ago that "the sun never set on the British Empire."

Interesting that you use the phrase, "eagerness to test their skills." That's something I usually see out of people who have never actually been up against a real adversary that was shooting back at them. I, personally, have no "eagerness" to go into combat ever again. If I never fire another shot in anger that would be perfectly fine to me. I know what my skills are what they are, and outside of needing to employ them in defense of my nation or our way of life, I have no desire to "test" them whatsoever. The risks of losing in that "test" are just far too great for it to be worth it.

Now, I certainly know a lot of fighter pilots who are more than willing to express their bravado about their prowess in the air, especially to someone who is not involved in the business themselves (ergo, to civilians). Behond closed doors, however, I can assure you that there is no such bravado or eagerness.

When my squadron was crammed into a tent in the middle of the desert in March 2003, watching President Bush tell Saddam Hussein that "you have 48 hours to leave Iraq", I can assure you there was not a single pilot in that room who was eager to test his prowess. What I saw were a whole lot of wide eyes and blank faces of men who were proud of what they were about to do, but just as scared about doing it as they were eager. I was one of 'em, too.

JDK · **Posted:** Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:15 am

Interesting discussion.

Randy Haskin wrote:

Arrogance, however, is what gets you in trouble. That's the belief that, because of those superior equipment, training, and tactics, that you are invincible and infallible. Unfortunately, I see that a lot out of Americans (both inside and out of the military). Just as that was the downfall of so many empires in the past, I see that as the downfall of the "American Empire" of the present. Don't forget that it was only 100 years ago that "the sun never set on the British Empire."

Glad you wrote that, Randy. I agree 100% It's a critical point, and one that needs to be made - better too from your point of view.

There's no doubt that the US military is, in relative terms, very well equipped, trained and supported - although I'm sure it doesn't feel like it to the users at times! And generally, over the last 70 years or so, the US military is very effective. For those reasons I'd suggest Brad's suggestion of having 'faith' in it unnecessary, 'faith' taking over where evidence stops. But Brad obviously means the faith to trust the US military will do the best job the people can for the right reasons - a reasonable appeal from someone serving to request from the people back home. My impression is that again, most people do have trust in the services in the democracies, if only for the fact that we can have discussions like this.

And I know Randy's real, my friend Harvey told me so. :shock:

Regards,

Nathan · **Posted:** Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:52 am

Brad wrote:

Nathan wrote:

why does everyone think the U.S. would win in the fights with the F-14s or any other aircraft for that matter? It is this way of thinking that will bite you.

It's called having faith in your military Nathan. Give it a try sometime. In a few of these cases, It's also called "some people know some stuff you don't know" because they are in the military. The government hasn't given away all of our secrets...yet.

hi Brad,

Never underestimate your enemy thats all I am trying to say.

262crew · **Joined:** Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:24 pm **Posts:** 877

There are many ways they have acquired parts. I read about a company in California that got busted for selling F14 parts to Iran a few years ago.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... e-tech.htm

Yes I know this one is from msnbc.....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16899097/

To be "fair and balanced"
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,248844,00.html

Speedy · **Posted:** Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:15 pm

67Cougar wrote:

If Randy is indeed what he says he is, and I have no reason to doubt, then he has my admiration and thanks.

Gee, Randy...I didn't know the Air Force gave away DFC's for sitting behind a computer and writing stuff on message boards. I'm impressed.

A2C · **Posted:** Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:22 pm

I more or less agree w/ Randy, and any assumption otherwise isn't productive to the winning team.

This discussion has come up before, and one thing mentioned then was the F-14's could have been rebuilt with Russian help. Russian engines or overhauls, etc. Russian avionics maybe in exchange for Phoenix missile technology. I'm sure if you can imagine it, the Iranian military is up to it. We all know it, they're about to shoot off nuclear missiles at any time.

So my thoughts are these:

Iran probably abuses their equipment much like the Iraqi military did-burying planes during airraids, flying runout engines etc.

At the same time, they are religious zealots with an intent to kill, and they are allied with the Russians.

A2C · **Posted:** Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:26 pm

Cking wrote:

Quote:

It's the first time I've seen the "fore planes" extended.

Randy wrote:

Quote:

My understanding is that the glove vanes were deactivated on the US Tomgrapes.

I lived near Miramar NAS in the 80's, and we'd see F-14's about 15-20 miles out with glove vanes out. They'd use them to slow down, and would keep them out with the wings still swept back during the overhead break.

Speedy · **Posted:** Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:34 pm

A2C wrote:

Iran probably abuses their equipment much like the Iraqi military did-burying planes during airraids, flying runout engines etc.

Haven't really kept up to speed on the current situation, but 10-15 years ago the Iranian Navy had a couple of Kilo class diesel-electric submarines. All the intel in the world we had access to told us that they couldn't run them to save their lives...that they couldn't run them at snorkel/periscope depth without porpoising them on the surface, etc.

But the fact remained that just the THREAT of a 'red force' submarine on the hunt in the Arabian Gulf, or in the Strait of Hormuz could wreak havoc on shipping and essentially shut down that body of water for an indefinite amount of time--which would in turn have an inevitable effect on the global economy.

If the sh*t hit the fan and push came to shove...would the 'blue force' be able to find them and neutralize them? Yeah...pretty sure bet. But you have to find them first. And just like what has been said on here before about a potential 'lucky shot' by the Iranian F-14's...you have to take them seriously. I know that when I was over there one of those Kilos 'snuck out' of port in Chabahar into the Northern Indian Ocean, and we were scrambled off the ready alert to find them...it was for real.

Warren_C · **Posted:** Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:47 pm

A2C wrote:

Cking wrote:

Quote:

It's the first time I've seen the "fore planes" extended.

Randy wrote:

Quote:

My understanding is that the glove vanes were deactivated on the US Tomgrapes.

I lived near Miramar NAS in the 80's, and we'd see F-14's about 15-20 miles out with glove vanes out. They'd use them to slow down, and would keep them out with the wings still swept back during the overhead break.

BS Flag. I think you need to do some more research before making uneducated statements. Glove vanes are not devices used to slow down a Tomcat and at a distance of 15 to 20 miles, you couldn't tell the difference between a 172 and a F-14. Even if you hung out at the east gate, arriving traffic is landing west and a mid-field break is 6000ft from the threshold. You either stayed at a Holiday Inn Express or have superhero vision.

The F-14 like any other weapon system, was/is only as good as the factory support it receives (tech reps and factory or field mods), the airman that maintain and ultimately fly it. It is highly doubtful the Iranians have found a way to overcome all the support issues and are capable of providing a squadron of mission ready Tomcats. Everything is against them, any number of consumable parts non-existent to them, would cause a down bird. Do you redesign complete sub-systems, redesign o-rings, filters, weapon systems computers? Even the martin-baker seat has life limited components. I find it highly probable that the only victory an Iranian Tomcat will garner is in the arena of propaganda on websites.

JDK · **Posted:** Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:55 pm

Speedy wrote:

But the fact remained that just the THREAT of a 'red force' submarine on the hunt in the Arabian Gulf, or in the Strait of Hormuz could wreak havoc on shipping and essentially shut down that body of water for an indefinite amount of time--which would in turn have an inevitable effect on the global economy.

You make a very interesting point there, as a 'tail' to the 'fleet in being' theory of maritime power, held up to W.W.II with the battleship, and exploded - literally - at Taranto by the Royal Navy's Fleet air Arm. However the Tirpitz's use showed the concept wasn't dead, and as you've mentioned above can still apply today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_in_being

Thanks for that!

A2C · **Posted:** Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:39 pm

Quote:

BS Flag. I think you need to do some more research before making uneducated statements. Glove vanes are not devices used to slow down a Tomcat and at a distance of 15 to 20 miles, you couldn't tell the difference between a 172 and a F-14. Even if you hung out at the east gate, arriving traffic is landing west and a mid-field break is 6000ft from the threshold. You either stayed at a Holiday Inn Express or have superhero vision.

Got better things to study than glove vanes, widgets, or where the relief tube is, type of ejection seat, etc. You don't? Just mentioning what I saw. I could care less actually.

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:44 pm

I'm hearing a buzzing to but not from Warren :idea:

Speedy · **Posted:** Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:52 pm

Jack Cook wrote:

I'm hearing a buzzing to but not from Warren :idea:

But I've heard Warren buzz like that once too.

Of course, it was right after my son whomped him at go karts in the parking lot of the Grand Sierra, but....that's a story for another time.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:28 pm

Is there an "ignore" feature that can be turned on?

Ryan

Joe Scheil · **Posted:** Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:43 pm

A different view...

While I really hate the Iranian leader, their general philosophy and the whole culture and stuff...

The flying F-14's are so cool! Remember folks, this is where tomorrow's warbirds are going to be found. I would love to import a good ten or so about 15 years from now with spares for sales, and form a good 4 ship Tomcat display team for the airshows. It will be a big hit because the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds will become a bit boring after flying displays in Predators after a few years. ( Of course all airshow fans will still get autographs from the pilots emailed direct from creech on the I phones) Ahhh technology!

Those Grummans are the last flying Tomcats! Amazing pictures, and neat to know the plane is still with us compared to the genocide going on in Tucson with these airframes. I would really have to believe, as much as I hate to think it, that there may actually be good human beings that enjoy airplanes in Iran. Guys like me I suppose. The guy that takes these pictures, and captions them seems to be an airplane guy. After a lot of what has happened, I suppose its good to find something that one can like over there. And it seems like a hell of an airshow in Tehran! 707, 747SP and F-4, F-5 and F-14!!! A shame to miss it.

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Iran F-14's musta flown recently!

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