Save the Skyraider

airnutz · **Posted:** Tue May 19, 2009 1:36 pm

PinecastleAAF wrote:

It is as simple as that.

Hopefully good legal advice and perseverance thru the proper channels can get this resolved. I don't see it as a case of government gone wild at all, rules are rules.

You would think someone going to the expense and work of importing a warbird would make sure all his t's were crossed and his i's were dotted. I hope he can get it worked out.

Unfortunately, it is not as simple as that. We're in a time where different agencies overlap...some with jurisdiction..
some testing new waters. In discussing the Skyraider issue with a Fed a few weeks back he replied, "No, there isn't
a booklet or package instruction on 'How to import a Warbird'"

Finding the guidance of someone experienced with your exact details in order to fulfill the proper paperwork may be
a bit tough right now.

One officials "no problem", may be anothers "red flag".

EDIT
Forgot to mention, the enforcers are also imbued with varying degrees of experience in a rarified niche of import/export...
Remember the troubles the Spitfire headed 'downunda' encountered last year?

PinecastleAAF · **Joined:** Fri May 25, 2007 4:50 pm **Posts:** 1027

Quote:

In discussing the Skyraider issue with a Fed a few weeks back he replied, "No, there isn't
a booklet or package instruction on 'How to import a Warbird'"

That is hilarious. Check with customs, there ARE rules about importing significant military equipment. Pretty sure a skyraider falls in that category. Too bad they don't put out a helpful booklet for us everday joes.

Something was done or not done differently in the case of this skyraider. Hopefully the owner can figure it out. Warbirds get imported all the time and I don't see the Feds coming to get all of them. Maybe i missed that news.

airnutz · **Posted:** Tue May 19, 2009 2:23 pm

PinecastleAAF wrote:

Quote:

In discussing the Skyraider issue with a Fed a few weeks back he replied, "No, there isn't
a booklet or package instruction on 'How to import a Warbird'"

That is hilarious. Check with customs, there ARE rules about importing significant military equipment. Pretty sure a skyraider falls in that category. Too bad they don't put out a helpful booklet for us everday joes.

Something was done or not done differently in the case of this skyraider. Hopefully the owner can figure it out. Warbirds get imported all the time and I don't see the Feds coming to get all of them. Maybe i missed that news.

Of course there are rules, but there can be differing readings of the rules from one official to another. Ask Noiseydave
about "simply" importing their gooneybird from Canada last year. A "no brainer" to "instant clusterf*ck" because some
chucklehead in Seattle raised a red flag where none was before. IIRC...
(EDIT- IIRC, there was no trouble with the actual customs folks or the Canadian Transportation Agency...all "I's" and "T's" met...the ferry permit on the U.S. side was the hold up.)

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Tue May 19, 2009 3:42 pm

Randy Haskin wrote:

Let's not let this anti-TSA rant be like the last one about the B-17....you know, the one which turned out to be not as it was originally reported.

This may be as asinine as it seems, I don't know...but be wary of ready/fire/aim comments, as they are as ignorant as the action that's being commented on potentially is.

Randy, I have no political agenda at all. I hate politics, and my commetns have nothing to do with politics. MY comments have to do with working close with the TSA for 4years and seeing the insane things that they have done. Seeing a group that was designed to make aviation safer, do nothing at all, but be praised for it. MOst of them have NO aviation knowledge other than watching Top Gun once. I have seen them damage aircraft, and violate their own rules day after day. Let alone do things that violate every shred of common sense. It is a useless organization.

Actual conversation between passenger and TSA scanner

TSA: Sir, I need to look in your bag, can I have it"

PAX:" Yeah it is tricky to open, I will do it for you"

TSA:" No you are not allowed, I have to do it, those are the rules"

RSA: (after not being able to open the bag, and struggling with it) "Sir can you open the bag"

PAX: "No I can't. I am sorry those are the rules."

THe PAX was a VIP and good for him. My comments are strictly aviation based, and not political at all. My comments come from working right next to TSA for years and seeing the non sense that comes out of that bunch.

famvburg · **Joined:** Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:41 am **Posts:** 540

Rules are rules, but it's not like he was attmpting to cover up something. It was an oversight on the paperwork. Simple as that.

PinecastleAAF wrote:

What the owner needs is a VERY good attorney. If the owner or owners agent did not get the proper paperwork then he is in violation of the law. It is as simple as that. Hopefully good legal advice and perseverance thru the proper channels can get this resolved. I don't see it as a case of government gone wild at all, rules are rules. You would think someone going to the expense and work of importing a warbird would make sure all his t's were crossed and his i's were dotted. I hope he can get it worked out.

PinecastleAAF · **Joined:** Fri May 25, 2007 4:50 pm **Posts:** 1027

There is a rumor that the TSA will be taking over the Air Force Museum......as soon as they take care of the FiFi situation.

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Tue May 19, 2009 6:10 pm

PinecastleAAF wrote:

There is a rumor that the TSA will be taking over the Air Force Museum......as soon as they take care of the FiFi situation.

I am pretty sure they would get the boot rather fast in there!

JDK · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2009 2:04 am

mustangdriver wrote:

MY comments have to do with working close with the TSA for 4years and seeing the insane things that they have done.

Mod Post: That has nothing to do with the case in question, as far as we know and continued general discussion of the TSA (or other possibly-but-not-actually involved entities) rather than the Skyraider case is in contravention of the forum rules we all signed up to.

We can all vapour about bits of the governments we don't like - it's not relevant.

Last warning - stick to the Skyraider case.

Thank you.

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2009 3:01 am

JDK, I really mean no disrespect, but I am sticking to the topic of this thread, and AM not talking politics at all. I am talking abou tthe group that is in question of taking this Skyraider, and their practices. It is no different than discussing TIGHAR in any of the other threads.

JDK · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2009 3:50 am

Dear Chris,

I don't think you are being disrespectful, but it sure isn't relevant.

Whatever the issues with the TSA in general what matters here is the specific case - you can't argue 'they all do it' in court.

I've an open mind. I don't see the TSA involved from the information provided so far. The cited organisations (by the owner) are Federal Government and the Homeland Security, NOT the TSA specifically.

He's been asked to provide more details and, so far, hasn't.

The original thread is here: http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... hp?t=29632

I'm curious as to why the website doesn't seem to provide ANY details of the case. Am I missing something, or should I 'check back later'?

Obviously my senator is going to be completely disinterested in the matter, being in Australia. However I wouldn't be taking any action anyway until I have some more facts to act on.

Until there's evidence that the TSA are involved, I hope you can see that talking bout them is irrelevant. The previous anti-TSA thread was great fun for those who like to attack governmental organisations - but it was our posters who were wrong. The TSA were not involved. Who ended up looking silly there? I've no time for counter-productive organisations like the TSA - but attacking them when they aren't involved is pointless and counter-productive.

Going off half cocked about the specific case also isn't helpful.

TIGHAR are not a similar entity. I'm sure we can all see the obvious jokes - let's not make 'em and say we did.

Thanks.

PinecastleAAF · **Joined:** Fri May 25, 2007 4:50 pm **Posts:** 1027

Quote:

He's been asked to provide more details and, so far, hasn't.

I'm curious as to why the website doesn't seem to provide ANY details of the case. Am I missing something, or should I 'check back later'?

I wondered why not also. Maybe he is waiting for his booklet from the gubmint titled 'How to import a warbird'.

AirJimL2 · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2009 7:12 am

JDK wrote:

Until there's evidence that the TSA are involved, I hope you can see that talking bout them is irrelevant. The previous anti-TSA thread was great fun for those who like to attack governmental organisations - but it was our posters who were wrong. The TSA were not involved. Who ended up looking silly there?

The irony of this is that this is now the second anti-TSA thread where the TSA was not involved. It is the ATF and ICE that have issues with the Skyraider. TSA is not in the least bit involved with importation of warbirds. Their mandate is airport safety and the case at issue has NOTHING to do with that.

Jim

T33driver · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2009 8:41 am

PinecastleAAF wrote:

Quote:

In discussing the Skyraider issue with a Fed a few weeks back he replied, "No, there isn't
a booklet or package instruction on 'How to import a Warbird'"

That is hilarious. Check with customs, there ARE rules about importing significant military equipment. Pretty sure a skyraider falls in that category. Too bad they don't put out a helpful booklet for us everday joes.

Something was done or not done differently in the case of this skyraider. Hopefully the owner can figure it out. Warbirds get imported all the time and I don't see the Feds coming to get all of them. Maybe i missed that news.

Great posts Pinecastle--you've gotten to the heart of the matter. While I feel the Skyraider owner's pain, one has to do their homework exhaustively when importing a warbird in the post 9-11 era. Owners/importers can b*tch all day long about gov't rules and regs but if you wanna play the game, you gotta follow the rules and be extremely thorough and pay close attention to detail on the gov't paperwork and procedure or you are in big trouble. I imported my warbird in 2002 and have assisted several others doing the same since then. One guy told me, "hey I wanna bring my T-33 out of Canada in a few weeks, what do I need to do?" I replied he should give himself six months to get all the approvals from:

US Dept of Defense Technology Transfer Division
US Dept of State--dept of defense trade controls
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
US Customs or ICE as it's called now
TSA
FAA
your state DOT
Transport Canada
your state's Dept of Health radiation protection division (re. radium gages)

I think that's all of them but you can see what's involved here. The first thing I did when I undertook to import my warbird was to pick the brains of a few guys who done it successfully, then called every gov't agency I knew for sure would be involved (US Customs, FAA, ATF) and asked them what they needed from other agencies. It takes a lot of coordinating, it's onerous, a pain, but in the end I found most of the folks in the alphabet soup of gov't agencies were helpful and cooperative and some even thought it was pretty cool. I don't know what the Skyraider owner did or didn't do in following procedure but if his paperwork and procedures weren't accomplished correctly and/or completely, I'm not surprised he's in this situation.

Robbie Stuart · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2009 9:18 am

Paul, that is some very good advice in your comments. I have not been involved in import/export of any Warbirds, but I have a great deal of experience in this field with corporate class aircraft, & as simple as it seems, there can be some some hidden problems that arise in this area, even after the aircraft have been inspected, registered, & C of A issued.
I can not go in to specifics here, but I have had instances where more than one govt. agency was involved, & it can get real sticky in a hurry. I wish the owner of the Skyraider the best of luck. & I hope this can be cleared up soon.
Regards
Robbie

Dan K · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2009 9:42 am

T33driver wrote:

PinecastleAAF wrote:

Quote:

In discussing the Skyraider issue with a Fed a few weeks back he replied, "No, there isn't
a booklet or package instruction on 'How to import a Warbird'"

That is hilarious. Check with customs, there ARE rules about importing significant military equipment. Pretty sure a skyraider falls in that category. Too bad they don't put out a helpful booklet for us everday joes.

Something was done or not done differently in the case of this skyraider. Hopefully the owner can figure it out. Warbirds get imported all the time and I don't see the Feds coming to get all of them. Maybe i missed that news.

Great posts Pinecastle--you've gotten to the heart of the matter. While I feel the Skyraider owner's pain, one has to do their homework exhaustively when importing a warbird in the post 9-11 era. Owners/importers can b*tch all day long about gov't rules and regs but if you wanna play the game, you gotta follow the rules and be extremely thorough and pay close attention to detail on the gov't paperwork and procedure or you are in big trouble. I imported my warbird in 2002 and have assisted several others doing the same since then. One guy told me, "hey I wanna bring my T-33 out of Canada in a few weeks, what do I need to do?" I replied he should give himself six months to get all the approvals from:

US Dept of Defense Technology Transfer Division
US Dept of State--dept of defense trade controls
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
US Customs or ICE as it's called now
TSA
FAA
your state DOT
Transport Canada
your state's Dept of Health radiation protection division (re. radium gages)

I think that's all of them but you can see what's involved here. The first thing I did when I undertook to import my warbird was to pick the brains of a few guys who done it successfully, then called every gov't agency I knew for sure would be involved (US Customs, FAA, ATF) and asked them what they needed from other agencies. It takes a lot of coordinating, it's onerous, a pain, but in the end I found most of the folks in the alphabet soup of gov't agencies were helpful and cooperative and some even thought it was pretty cool. I don't know what the Skyraider owner did or didn't do in following procedure but if his paperwork and procedures weren't accomplished correctly and/or completely, I'm not surprised he's in this situation.

Paul,

All excellent info, especially the part about contacting acquaintances who were veterans to the process. But what if a potential warbird owner has no such acquaintances?

I wonder if our very own Warbird Information Exchange could serve the warbird owning (or potential warbird owning) community by providing this kind of information in a sticky. This scenario is obviously going to continue rearing its head, so what about creating a repository of information on WIX which would help the importer navigate the process successfully? Perhaps even the government agencies involved would appreciate having such a headache-reduction program in place.

Warbird Information Exchange

Save the Skyraider

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