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When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:26 pm 
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Jack Cook wrote:
You left out the most important part... the cause :idea:
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The Hurricane pilot's failure to maintain directional control during roll-out.


:shock: :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:42 pm 
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Forgotten: No problem. 'Dual landings' is not the correct venacular....it would be described as 2 ship formation landing or 'element landing'.
In tailwheel fighter aircraft it is not recommended and not taught by FAST Fighter instructors these days. (Some of the other formation groups may have it in their curriculum...such as the T-34s and T-28s. I'm not familiar with the other groups.)
FYI,
VL


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:13 am 
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vlado wrote:
Forgotten: No problem. 'Dual landings' is not the correct venacular....it would be described as 2 ship formation landing or 'element landing'.
In tailwheel fighter aircraft it is not recommended and not taught by FAST Fighter instructors these days. (Some of the other formation groups may have it in their curriculum...such as the T-34s and T-28s. I'm not familiar with the other groups.)
FYI,
VL


There was quite a detailed discussion on this subject in other internet forums right after the Beck accident.

Dudley H posted that in general "tail dragger" warbird groups do not perform formation landings while "nose draggers" do routinely.

EDIT: Just found the post...it's from rec.aviation.military, 31 July 2007:

Quote:
That isn't the issue with section landings in tailwheel prop fighters.

There is nothing set in stone that says you can't land 70 T6's on that runway and not have an incident.

You should be aware however, as a competent AT6 pilot that if you are doing section landings in AT6's on ANY runway you are executing a procedure NOT....and I repeat again for any OTHER AT6 pilots out here who might be interested in another opinion....NOT using a procedure recommended by the following organizations;

1. The T34 Association
2. Warbirds of America (a subsidiary of EAA)
3. Valiant Air Command
4. North American Trainer Association Inc. (your OWN association BTW)
5. Confederate Air Force
6. Formation and Air Safety Training
7. Canadian Warbird Heritage

These associations all specifically state for the North American AT6 aircraft concerning section landings, and I quote,
Ref Carl Schmieder Type Specific to AT6;
"Landings; due to control and visibility limitations, section landings are generally not performed".

On the P51 Mustang; per Vlado Lenoch in the same training material;
"Section landings are NOT done in P51's due to control and visibility limitations"


Quote:
Section landings are fine in nose draggers as they don't carry the same safety baggage as the tailwheels. I'll be honest with you. You can't see crap out the direct front over the nose in a 51 after the tail comes down. Section landings in Mustangs can really be bad juju for a whole mess of reasons we both know quite well.

In the T6, it's not quite as bad, but it's still a bad idea to do section landings.


There are many different terms for this, by the way. The USAF fighter community uses "formation landing", the Navy uses "section landing", and other groups use "element landing" and "wing landing". They're all describing the same thing.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:18 am 
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From what I have seen from Vintage Wings of Canada when there are multiple aircraft in the air one aircraft will land and clear the runway while the others make another pass. Then the second aircraft lands and clears while the remaining aircraft make a pass. This is done until all aircraft are safely on the ground. Mind you I have seen this is at their home airport or Rockcliffe when there has been no more then four aircraft in the group but the procedure seems very safe and will avoid landing roll out collisions.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:20 am 
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What may confuse some into thinking it is a formation landing is when there are multiable aircraft landing on the same runway. A formation landing is when the leader and wingman touch down at the same time, same as when flying formation. The T-6s use a staggered landing, which is, after the break, each pilot is flying his plane. The runway is split in half with the centerline being the divider. The planes land on oppisite sides of the runway with spacing between planes, all planes are wheel landed for visiability down the runway. At Oshkosh, The T-6s would turn off the runway to the side they were on, so if you landed on the right side, you turned off to the right.

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