Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Wed May 06, 2026 4:36 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 102 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:51 am
Posts: 37
Location: LostAngeles
Well....to drop a little detail that has been left out....the chip detector went off once before when my father and Tony were flying the airplane. If that engine was fixed (I believe it was) and was the same engine that went out to lunch when Hoover was flying, then maybe the tolerances were off just enough or something unnoticed was lurking such that 'normal' (Hoover style) acrobatics overstressed the engine.

My view is that if the engine had not gone south on Hoover, then somebody else probably would have gotten the privilege at a later time. As for the legal proceedings, well, we all know how boys get when somebody else seemingly breaks their favorite toy.

The long and short of it is that has been a bit of a hard-luck airplane. After the Hoover incident Tony had to deal w/ a partner that was a piece of 'work' (word substitution is allowable). Tony had reams of paperwork and legal filings to go through in order to divorce himself from the 'partner' and obtain sole ownership of the airplane. If he didn't have his Gnat to play with he probably really would have lost it !!! Tony is a good guy BTW....I've known him since I was a kid. He used to build beautiful Mercedes Gullwing Replica cars that still fetch 100K when they become available for resale. He had a little production line at his facility in So Cal.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:35 pm
Posts: 719
Location: Johnson City, TN
A quick search of NTSB reports and google shows quite a few T-28 incidents involving chip lights and catastrophic engine failure that are not connected to acro. This one got real ugly:

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/t28regis ... 40637.html

Steve G


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: ????
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:10 am 
Offline
Co-MVP - 2006
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 11:21 pm
Posts: 11475
Location: Salem, Oregon
I LEARNED ABOUT LOANING MY AIRPLANE FROM..
by Anton Ostermeier
For those of us who have loaned our precious aircraft to others
and never thought twice about it, do I have a story for you.
For years I had let others share my joy of flying by loaning my
aircraft to them, but unfortunately NEVER again! About four
years ago I remember leaving the airport and looking back at
my North American Rockwell T-28 Trojan, it's dark blue paint
glistening in the reflection of the setting sun. It was beautiful.
The airplane was a perfect example ofa flawlessly restored vintage
aircraft. Unfortunately that would be the last time I would
fly the airplane or for that matter see it in perfect condition
agan.
It all started back in January of 1994 when the owner of the
FBO where my T-28 was parked called me with an unusual
request. He wanted to borrow my T-28, but for someone else to
fly (mistake #1). As it turned out, it was for a famous, old-time
airshow pilot that wanted to fly my T-28. I was actually pleased
to think that a famous airshow pilot was going to fly my T-28
(mistake #2). I mean, who better to loan your airplane to than a
professional, experienced airshow pilot (mistake #3). What I
didn't realize was that he wanted to use my airplane in order to
demonstrate to the FAA that his flying skills were still intact.
What I also didn't realize was that the owner of the FBO was
not going to go flying with him, but instead have another pilot
fly with him, since the airshow pilot technically no longer had
a license. What started out to be a simple phone request from a
friend, somehow snow-balled into a legal fiasco.
As I mentioned earlier the aircraft was in perfect condition.
It had been completely restored two years earlier and had just
received a new engine and prop with less than 60 hours. The T28
was in the best condition it had been since leaving the factory
in 1962. Without going into too much detail, I will tell you
what happened the day of the mishap. As usual, I was hard at
work at my business, just like I always do, six days a week,
fifty- two weeks a year. I didn't really even know they were
using the airplane that day. It turned out that the pilot they found
to fly with the airshow pilot was just recently checked out himself
in the T-28 and had only 6 hours in type. This didn't really
affect the outcome of the mishap, but it does show the lack of
care and concern that was given to me and my airplane by the
owner of the FBO.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what happened
next. 'I didn't borrow your airplane, he did". "I wasn't flying
your airplane, he was, I don't even have a license". " There was
something wrong with you engine". "There was something
wrong with your propeller". No one was going to step up to the
plate and take responsibility. Unfortunately, I didn't have anything
in writing (mistake #4)! That was my biggest mistake.
Everyone is your buddy until something goes wrong and then
you're on your own. I tried everything to come to some sort of
settlement with the parties concerned, but I couldn't even get
them to meet me halfway. The only course of action left was to
go to court. What I learned about the Civil Court legal system
from this event is another whole article in itself. It took over 4
years to actually be heard in court, all the while the once shiny
blue T-28 sits on the ramp at the airport collecting corrosion.
I
The civil trial was tough. You have to realize that I respected
and admired the airshow pilot who borrowed my airplane, he
was a great pilot, however I stood to lose a substantial amount
of money if! didn't defend myself. We had a good jury of intelligent
men and women, however none of the jurors had ever
flown in a civilian airplane and knew very little about flying.
They knew nothing technical about aviation. All they would
know to make their decision would be what the attorneys would
teach them. Just typing that makes me cringe. No offense to
attorneys, that's what they get paid to do. To make a long story
short, the jury, in the absence of anything in writing, awarded
me $0, zero, nothing.
I have tried very hard to not use names or point fingers in
this article. The purpose of the article is to hopefully prevent
someone else into falling into the same trap and making the
same mistakes that I did. It was a hard $250,000 dollar lesson
that I learned. Hopefully you too can learn from my mistakes.
Remember, the most important thing is to GET IT IN WRITING,
because a verbal agreement or an expectation of fairness
just won't cut it.
The rest of the story is based on what was told to me by the
pilots and what I could figure out from the video tape they took
during the flight. The flight started out normally with a departure
over the coast out to the practice area. They started a series
of airshow acrobatics consisting of 16 point rolls, 8 point rolls
and 4 point slow rolls. Keep in mind that there is a 10 second
inverted flight limitation on the T-28 because of oil starvation.
On the video tape you can time the rolls that exceeded the aircraft's
limitations. The rolls were followed by a series of Cuban
8's. In the video you can distinctively hear the engine racing in
the dive portion of the maneuvers. Well you guessed it, the prop
was oil starved, resulting in a massive prop overspeed which in
turn caused an overspeed of the engine. When a radial engine
overspeeds to that degree the pistons stretch out and start hitting
the valves resulting in a seriously damaged engine. I do give
credit to the inexperienced T-28 pilot because he recognized
and notified the airshow pilot about the overspeed that he obviously
didn't hear. At that point they stopped their maneuvers
and nursed the airplane back to the airport. One good thing
about the R1820 engine is that it will give you its all before it
dies. During the descent and subsequent slowing of the aircraft,
the engine seized. It's hard to comprehend the loads created
when an 1450 hp engine suddenly stops running. The seizing of
the engine was so violent that it tweaked the entire cowl and
wing box section of the airframe. The airplane was totaled!
I guess what really disturbed me was what happened after
they got on the ground. After repeatedly watching the video, it
was very clear to me that NO ONE was even the slightest bit
concerned that they had just destroyed my airplane. They were
laughing and joking about what had just happened and were so
glad that it was on video so they could show the FAA what a
great pilot he was for bringing her back in one piece. Well it was
in one piece, none of which would ever fly again.

Now, where's the video???

_________________
Don't touch my junk!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:54 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:10 am
Posts: 9721
Location: Pittsburgher misplaced in Oshkosh
So Hoover wasn't the PIC? It sounds like there were alot of mistakes made in this by a few people. This could very well be something that Hoover did, maybe not. Regardless I think most people will agree that Hoover is one of the best pilots ever. I have a hard time believing an ex-North American test pilot would know what the T-28 can and can not do.

_________________
Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: ???
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:14 am 
Offline
Co-MVP - 2006
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 11:21 pm
Posts: 11475
Location: Salem, Oregon
Quote:
So Hoover wasn't the PIC?

Remember????? He had his medical jerked and was trying to get it back :idea:
A 6 hour in type pilot in back sorta sounds like Hughes co-poilot for the Goose flight :shock:
This part was interesting...........
Keep in mind that there is a 10 second
inverted flight limitation on the T-28 because of oil starvation.
On the video tape you can time the rolls that exceeded the aircraft's
limitations. The rolls were followed by a series of Cuban
8's. In the video you can distinctively hear the engine racing in
the dive portion of the maneuvers. Well you guessed it, the prop
was oil starved, resulting in a massive prop overspeed which in
turn caused an overspeed of the engine.
I do give credit to the inexperienced T-28 pilot because he recognized
and notified the airshow pilot about the overspeed that he obviously
didn't hear.

So who's going to put the video on youtube :?:

_________________
Don't touch my junk!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:35 pm
Posts: 719
Location: Johnson City, TN
If this had been my airplane, and I was as proud of it as this guy claims to have been, I'd have been right there and learned all I could about the situation and the back seater's experience. There seems to be something just not right with his story. I'm not excusing Hoover. He's not perfect and recount's many times in his book where he made careless mistakes and just survived on luck.
I'm like Jack, love to see the video.

Steve G


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:29 pm
Posts: 59
Location: Sacramento, CA
I saw that airplane on the ramp a week after the incident. It looked as if someone had grabbed both ends of the fuselage and twisted it - oil canning all the way down the fuselage, and the motor mount damage had twisted the cowl a couple of inches.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: T-28
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:00 am 
Offline
Probationary Member

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:53 pm
Posts: 3803
Location: Aspen, CO
We have one side of the story as told by the owner. A few facts, or at least things given as fact can be noted. First there is a video. Does it really show what the owner claims, does it show neg G's of more than 10 sec, or does it just show acro manuevers? A Cuban 8 is not a neg g thing, the nose is not held up while inverted. I do lot's of rolls, but I start with the nose up and I don't use forward stick to hold it up while inverted like you would in a Pitts. That is one of the reasons I use 500' as the floor to start at. Without seeing the g meter or at least the nose re the horizon it may be hard to tell. Was there any expert witness in court to convince the jury that Hoover exceeded the neg G limit?
Next, the owner says he loaned his plane to others. Is there a video of this, are we sure these owners flew the plane safer than Bob? Was Bob the only one to do acro or neg G? Another point raises suspicion, instead of going with Bob himself, he gave the plane to an inexperienced pilot he didn't even know, or apparently Know Of? How many of us, given a chance for a free acro lesson with Bob would have sent a stranger in our place? The idea that he didn't knoe they were going to do acro sounds preposterous; I think most guys would have been there to meet Bob and see then off. And it is a technical point, but legally the other guy, not Bob would be PIC, if Bob did not have a medical.
The last point, one of the biggest hardest facts in the case, is that a jury did not buy the owner's story; the jury did not award him any money at all. Remember in a civil case the standard of proof is only 51%; it is not the "beyond a reasonable doubt" as in a criminal trial.
Still, in the end I think the owner got a raw deal. Bob, and or the other pilot,maybe the FBO probably should have offered to pay for half the damages.
I may be wrong, but I recall something about the hull insurance having just expired or been canceled, perhaps the plane about to be sold, maybe there being a partner also. As I said I am not sure about this part.

_________________
Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: More
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:27 am 
Offline
Probationary Member

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:53 pm
Posts: 3803
Location: Aspen, CO
A couple of other questions: $250k repairs sounds like more than the total purchase price of a 28 in 1994. Won't that cover one even now? And as for the engine stoppage twisting the fuselage,this seems little hard to believe. There's lot's of 28s and other planes where engines quit even sieze and the fuselage is fine. A WIXer say this plane is still flying, I'd like to know what repairs were done, beyond the engine and prop? Did the fuselage really need repair? I have doubts on this part of the story.
I don't know Bob's finances now,or in 94, but he may have enough money from his book sales to be able to send this guy a check even now, maybe even !/4 or 1/2 of the total.. That may be pretty hard to do after someone has taken you to court and you have won totally, but it still might the the right thing.
I don't know the owner at all, or even of him. I know Bob to say hello, not really, so I'm not leaning either way.

_________________
Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: ???
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:37 pm 
Offline
Co-MVP - 2006
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 11:21 pm
Posts: 11475
Location: Salem, Oregon
Quote:
Next, the owner says he loaned his plane to others. Is there a video of this

Bill that doesn't make any sense
Quote:
instead of going with Bob himself, he gave the plane to an inexperienced pilot he didn't even know,

If you read that once more Bill it says he loaned it to the FBO owner whom he knew for hoover to fly.
He assumed the FBO guy was going to be with Hoover.
Quote:
A WIXer say this plane is still flying,

Well, it's been almost 15 years Bill maybe all that's flying is the paperwork?
But another wixer said this........
I saw that airplane on the ramp a week after the incident. It looked as if someone had grabbed both ends of the fuselage and twisted it -
oil canning all the way down the fuselage, and the motor mount damage had twisted the cowl a couple of inches.

Quote:
$250k repairs sounds like more than the total purchase price of a 28

If that had been Bob Watts's a/c it would have been a lot more!
I find the owner credable has he clearly points out all the mistakes he made in this whole sad episode.

_________________
Don't touch my junk!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:35 pm 
Offline
Senior Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:22 am
Posts: 3875
Location: DFW Texas
I split this topic from the Camarillo P-51 Crash thread....

Please try and be polite and refrain from extraneous gnashing of teeth...

Thanks

_________________
Zane Adams
There I was at 20,000 ft, upside down and out of ammunition.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Join us for the Texas Warbird Report on WarbirdRadio.com!
Image http://www.facebook.com/WarbirdRadio
Listen at http://www.warbirdradio.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: loan
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:44 pm 
Offline
Probationary Member

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:53 pm
Posts: 3803
Location: Aspen, CO
Jack, the owners own words in his account, "For years I let others share the joy of flying by loaning my aircraft to them" It may not make any sense to you, but that is what he wrote, I didn't invent the phrase. And Jack, for what the other WIXer saw, that is his opinion, his impression. You know how those WIX guys who hang around airports, maybe he wasn't even seeing straight after a big night out. All joking aside, as I wrote, what were the facts, what was the repair cost to fix the fuselage part if any?
Zach, I am trying to be polite, I just don't accept at face value everything, every accusation made by only one side of an account or dispute. I think I have made points on both sides. Can you point out any specifics of what I wrote that you feel or out of bounds? Usually by this time in a discussion the accusation of POLITICS has been raised against me.

_________________
Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loan
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:01 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 1275
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Bill Greenwood wrote:
Zach, I am trying to be polite, I just don't accept at face value everything, every accusation made by only one side of an account or dispute. I think I have made points on both sides. Can you point out any specifics of what I wrote that you feel or out of bounds? Usually by this time in a discussion the accusation of POLITICS has been raised against me.


While I admit I have been following this thread with interest, I think you mean ZANE Bill, not Zack. Unless another Zack posted and I missed it...

Zack

_________________
Volunteer Coordinator/Curator - Military Aviation Museum - Virginia Beach, VA
"America's Flying Museum"
http://www.militaryaviationmuseum.org


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loan
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:23 pm 
Offline
Senior Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:22 am
Posts: 3875
Location: DFW Texas
Bill Greenwood wrote:
Zach, I am trying to be polite, I just don't accept at face value everything, every accusation made by only one side of an account or dispute. I think I have made points on both sides. Can you point out any specifics of what I wrote that you feel or out of bounds? Usually by this time in a discussion the accusation of POLITICS has been raised against me.


I mentioned no specifics.....no names, no accusations....the conversation seemed a bit heated in print and I made a slight admonition to keep it civil...

That is all.

ZANE

_________________
Zane Adams
There I was at 20,000 ft, upside down and out of ammunition.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Join us for the Texas Warbird Report on WarbirdRadio.com!
Image http://www.facebook.com/WarbirdRadio
Listen at http://www.warbirdradio.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: ????
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:39 pm 
Offline
Co-MVP - 2006
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 11:21 pm
Posts: 11475
Location: Salem, Oregon
Quote:
Usually by this time in a discussion the accusation of POLITICS has been raised against me.

Ok now Bill you're making me smile :) Where's Eric Downing when you need him :shock: :wink:
since F4U-7 knows him maybe he can get a copy of the video or anyone know Bob Hoover :shock:

_________________
Don't touch my junk!!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 102 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 108 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group