Sun May 27, 2007 7:30 pm
I'll 3rd or 4th or whatever the NOT deleting of the link.
The only way to help prevent FUTURE mishaps is to completely understand what has happened in previous mishaps.
The people visiting this site are not a bunch of bloodlust freaks who are watching crashes for their sensational value -- we're all operators, owners, maintainers, or enthusiasts. NONE of us is particularly happy about losing a friend or acquantance. NONE of us wants to see these precious old aircraft destroyed.
The fact of the matter is that aviation is a dangerous business. People die. Those people who die have friends and family.
None of those facts should impede our ability to discuss, analyze, and most importantly LEARN from accidents.
We learn NOTHING by sticking our heads in the sand, "not speculating", or staying silent out of sensitivity for someone who knew the fataility or worked on the aircraft in question.
Safety is not just something we pay lip service to. Safety is a mentality. Safety is a CULTURE that, frankly, the warbird community has not thoroughly institutionalized.
If we want to see these airplanes continue flying long into the future...if we want to have our friends continue to own and operate their warbirds...then we need to get real.
The only way to help prevent FUTURE mishaps is to completely understand what has happened in previous mishaps.
The people visiting this site are not a bunch of bloodlust freaks who are watching crashes for their sensational value -- we're all operators, owners, maintainers, or enthusiasts. NONE of us is particularly happy about losing a friend or acquantance. NONE of us wants to see these precious old aircraft destroyed.
The fact of the matter is that aviation is a dangerous business. People die. Those people who die have friends and family.
None of those facts should impede our ability to discuss, analyze, and most importantly LEARN from accidents.
We learn NOTHING by sticking our heads in the sand, "not speculating", or staying silent out of sensitivity for someone who knew the fataility or worked on the aircraft in question.
Safety is not just something we pay lip service to. Safety is a mentality. Safety is a CULTURE that, frankly, the warbird community has not thoroughly institutionalized.
If we want to see these airplanes continue flying long into the future...if we want to have our friends continue to own and operate their warbirds...then we need to get real.
Sun May 27, 2007 7:47 pm
Hello all,
I have never seen the video nore ever heard of the crash before. But I don't understand why it was bad taste to post the link. Earlier someone posted video on the Duxford P-38 crash and I did not hear any complaining about that.
I am just comfused.
-Nate
I have never seen the video nore ever heard of the crash before. But I don't understand why it was bad taste to post the link. Earlier someone posted video on the Duxford P-38 crash and I did not hear any complaining about that.
I am just comfused.
-Nate
Sun May 27, 2007 8:19 pm
I don't have to do this, but for good manners, I will.
I asked Scott to delete the link, sight unseen, which he did. It appears I may have been a bit hasty, or over-reacted. Several people here have made good points, which I do take on board. I also appreciate the tone of the posts. Thank you, and this is not a disagreement, but an explanation, which I feel people are owed.
The reason I asked is simple. I was talking to the dedicated, passionate Mosquito crew a week before the accident, the same day the P-38 crashed with another fatality at Duxford. I had been talking safety with the P-38 pilot that morning, as ever, learning. I do not wish to revisit that particularly bleak week in British aviation, although I can understand that some have good reason for wishing to do so, as well as those who just like to watch crashes which is why u tube is full of them.
In this specific case, and in the case of the P-38 accident, I had the unenviable task, with Paul Coggan, of producing the AAIB accident reports in full in Warbirds Worldwide. As you can imagine, we took extra-special care to ensure no errors crept in to those reports. We worked hard to ensure that the lessons, and none of the speculation, and no voyeuristic interest was disseminated as widely as possible in the Warbird community as we could, in that pre-internet era. For those operating Merlin engine aircraft the advice was sent out by Rolls Royce at the time (IIRC) and the lessons from the accident were thoroughly publicised at the time - I do not agree that the film or raw data has significant importance to the user-end of the report - back then. Time has elapsed, and there are new warbird operators on the scene who may not be conversant with the accident or conclusions.
King makes a good point regarding a professional accident investigation interest, but I would add that a good deal of most accident raw material is not released to the public domain, although accident investigation professionals, or those that need to know can get access to it, for good reasons.
There are no operational Mosquitos anywhere in the world, and while it's highly likely there will be, u-tube will not be the means by which the crew brief on that accident and risk. Of course there are other types that can usefully use the lessons. But I do not agree that a video is a better means of the operator understanding what actually happened than a full AAIB report, as kindly posted by D Fisher.
I'm not a pilot, nor an operator, I'm simply a writer on vintage aviation. I am passionate about the prevention of censorship. But there are exceptions. I'm not advocating the video be destoyed; but the viral nature of the internet has many issues.
However, I have very personal reasons for not wishing to view the link (and the one to the P-38 accident) and significant concerns over those links as posted on u-tube. Randy's right that no-one here is likely to be ghoulish about the matter, but the link without the accident report does NOT explain the accident and is likely to engender casual speculation which some would find offensive. I'm highly appreciative of the tone of the discussion so far, which is why I've chosen to post.
If the price of re highlighting the AAIB report here is a few kids on u-tube watching what they see as a computer-game level accident, then it's an acceptable price to pay.
I trust people can understand my position, I've troubled to explain my rationale, and the fact that I did work hard to ensuring that the lessons from accidents (sadly, these were not the only ones we ran in WW) were publicised for the warbird community. I also trust people will understand that I am not keen to enter debate on the matter, for good, if personal reasons - but that I am not discounting the points made here by others either.
While I'm here, though I would like to pick up on Randy's last point:
Sadly I have to agree, and I'm greatful a current military pilot said it, rather than me. The culture and mentality is NOT yet good enough in warbird operations. We all need to look to ourselves and be less forgiving of second-rate performance. I'm not pointing fingers, or trying to tell those, with skills I do not have, how to do it. I'm simply saying safety is no accident.
Thank you.
Link. The British Air Accident Investigation Branch: http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/home/index.cfm
Edited to add ling to AAIB original accident report: http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications ... 501355.cfm
I asked Scott to delete the link, sight unseen, which he did. It appears I may have been a bit hasty, or over-reacted. Several people here have made good points, which I do take on board. I also appreciate the tone of the posts. Thank you, and this is not a disagreement, but an explanation, which I feel people are owed.
The reason I asked is simple. I was talking to the dedicated, passionate Mosquito crew a week before the accident, the same day the P-38 crashed with another fatality at Duxford. I had been talking safety with the P-38 pilot that morning, as ever, learning. I do not wish to revisit that particularly bleak week in British aviation, although I can understand that some have good reason for wishing to do so, as well as those who just like to watch crashes which is why u tube is full of them.
In this specific case, and in the case of the P-38 accident, I had the unenviable task, with Paul Coggan, of producing the AAIB accident reports in full in Warbirds Worldwide. As you can imagine, we took extra-special care to ensure no errors crept in to those reports. We worked hard to ensure that the lessons, and none of the speculation, and no voyeuristic interest was disseminated as widely as possible in the Warbird community as we could, in that pre-internet era. For those operating Merlin engine aircraft the advice was sent out by Rolls Royce at the time (IIRC) and the lessons from the accident were thoroughly publicised at the time - I do not agree that the film or raw data has significant importance to the user-end of the report - back then. Time has elapsed, and there are new warbird operators on the scene who may not be conversant with the accident or conclusions.
King makes a good point regarding a professional accident investigation interest, but I would add that a good deal of most accident raw material is not released to the public domain, although accident investigation professionals, or those that need to know can get access to it, for good reasons.
There are no operational Mosquitos anywhere in the world, and while it's highly likely there will be, u-tube will not be the means by which the crew brief on that accident and risk. Of course there are other types that can usefully use the lessons. But I do not agree that a video is a better means of the operator understanding what actually happened than a full AAIB report, as kindly posted by D Fisher.
I'm not a pilot, nor an operator, I'm simply a writer on vintage aviation. I am passionate about the prevention of censorship. But there are exceptions. I'm not advocating the video be destoyed; but the viral nature of the internet has many issues.
However, I have very personal reasons for not wishing to view the link (and the one to the P-38 accident) and significant concerns over those links as posted on u-tube. Randy's right that no-one here is likely to be ghoulish about the matter, but the link without the accident report does NOT explain the accident and is likely to engender casual speculation which some would find offensive. I'm highly appreciative of the tone of the discussion so far, which is why I've chosen to post.
If the price of re highlighting the AAIB report here is a few kids on u-tube watching what they see as a computer-game level accident, then it's an acceptable price to pay.
I trust people can understand my position, I've troubled to explain my rationale, and the fact that I did work hard to ensuring that the lessons from accidents (sadly, these were not the only ones we ran in WW) were publicised for the warbird community. I also trust people will understand that I am not keen to enter debate on the matter, for good, if personal reasons - but that I am not discounting the points made here by others either.
While I'm here, though I would like to pick up on Randy's last point:
Randy Haskin wrote:Safety is not just something we pay lip service to. Safety is a mentality. Safety is a CULTURE that, frankly, the warbird community has not thoroughly institutionalized.
Sadly I have to agree, and I'm greatful a current military pilot said it, rather than me. The culture and mentality is NOT yet good enough in warbird operations. We all need to look to ourselves and be less forgiving of second-rate performance. I'm not pointing fingers, or trying to tell those, with skills I do not have, how to do it. I'm simply saying safety is no accident.
Thank you.
Link. The British Air Accident Investigation Branch: http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/home/index.cfm
Edited to add ling to AAIB original accident report: http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications ... 501355.cfm
Last edited by JDK on Sun May 27, 2007 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Point of the Report
Sun May 27, 2007 8:46 pm
I mentioned that it might be good to have a Safety Forum as it's own site, just like Other Topics, and if the two modelers divisions were combined into one there would be room. Scott did not answer, and I don't have any idea how hard it is to revamp a website. To make a guesstimate summary of the accident, it seems like a temporary loss of power in one engine, probabably due to a carb problem, caused a loss of control too slow near the ground to recover. At Oshkosh each year there are type meetings( T-6, T-28, jets, etc.) One of the items in the 51 group was about overhauls of carbs and mags. These items especially carbs which have no backup are vital to safety. Pilots and owners have to trust to the overhaul shops, and in some cases warbirds may be a small part of their business and personell these days may not have had the full experience as in the past. As for the video, JDK and others make good points on both sides. Should any relatives object, that would have to be given great weight. Just my personal opinion, but when there is a loss we recount the good times and memories of those lost, but I also think we do the riight thing by constantly trying to learn from and prevent a future event.
Sun May 27, 2007 9:09 pm
I had to log off and think a bit before responding to this topic. I was not familiar with the crash.
First I want to offer my sincere condolences to those who lost personal friends. As a volunteer for a flying museum and having been involved in warbirds/vintage aviation for several years to varying degrees, I've learned what a small world and tightly knit community we have.
I've also learned to read all the way through the topic before commenting.
As I said, I'm unfamiliar with the crash. Whether the link is here or not, I choose not to open it. And I don't think any of the youtube trash viewers are members here.
Many good points have been made on both sides of the issue. Such as the fact that maybe evidence can be gained from the photographic record. On that score, maybe a warbird pilot is alive today from something that was learned 11 years ago.
James, I applaud your honesty. Obviously, this is not a pleasant matter for you to relive.
Also, when we all signed on here, we agreed that the owner of this website has the right to do with it as he sees fit. Sometimes we disagree with that. Just be respectful expressing such an opinion. Like I said though, I'm not interested in seeing it.
This being Memorial Day weekend here in the US of A, to all those of you who are or have been in our Armed Forces or those of brother nations, thank you for serving. You insure we continue to live in a free country where we can debate things like this freely.
Sincerely,
Doug Ratchford, "Canso42"
Brenham, Tx. vol. LSFM
First I want to offer my sincere condolences to those who lost personal friends. As a volunteer for a flying museum and having been involved in warbirds/vintage aviation for several years to varying degrees, I've learned what a small world and tightly knit community we have.
I've also learned to read all the way through the topic before commenting.
As I said, I'm unfamiliar with the crash. Whether the link is here or not, I choose not to open it. And I don't think any of the youtube trash viewers are members here.
Many good points have been made on both sides of the issue. Such as the fact that maybe evidence can be gained from the photographic record. On that score, maybe a warbird pilot is alive today from something that was learned 11 years ago.
James, I applaud your honesty. Obviously, this is not a pleasant matter for you to relive.
Also, when we all signed on here, we agreed that the owner of this website has the right to do with it as he sees fit. Sometimes we disagree with that. Just be respectful expressing such an opinion. Like I said though, I'm not interested in seeing it.
This being Memorial Day weekend here in the US of A, to all those of you who are or have been in our Armed Forces or those of brother nations, thank you for serving. You insure we continue to live in a free country where we can debate things like this freely.
Sincerely,
Doug Ratchford, "Canso42"
Brenham, Tx. vol. LSFM
Mon May 28, 2007 12:25 pm
Hi JDK,
I am sorry that you lost your friends there. I guess we all have to realize that life is not always far. I should know because my little sister died last year from cancer. Now I am alone and have no sibling to look after. You just have to take one day at a time just like I do.
Cheers,
Nathan
I am sorry that you lost your friends there. I guess we all have to realize that life is not always far. I should know because my little sister died last year from cancer. Now I am alone and have no sibling to look after. You just have to take one day at a time just like I do.
Cheers,
Nathan
Mon May 28, 2007 7:24 pm
Randy Haskin wrote:I'll 3rd or 4th or whatever the NOT deleting of the link.
The only way to help prevent FUTURE mishaps is to completely understand what has happened in previous mishaps.
The people visiting this site are not a bunch of bloodlust freaks who are watching crashes for their sensational value -- we're all operators, owners, maintainers, or enthusiasts. NONE of us is particularly happy about losing a friend or acquantance. NONE of us wants to see these precious old aircraft destroyed.
The fact of the matter is that aviation is a dangerous business. People die. Those people who die have friends and family.
Lynn
None of those facts should impede our ability to discuss, analyze, and most importantly LEARN from accidents.
We learn NOTHING by sticking our heads in the sand, "not speculating", or staying silent out of sensitivity for someone who knew the fataility or worked on the aircraft in question.
Safety is not just something we pay lip service to. Safety is a mentality. Safety is a CULTURE that, frankly, the warbird community has not thoroughly institutionalized.
If we want to see these airplanes continue flying long into the future...if we want to have our friends continue to own and operate their warbirds...then we need to get real.
Well said Randy. In our daily jobs, safety comes first. Mistakes are made and people do die from them, but we can learn and teach others from these events. Everytime we takeoff, we have 6 people in the back who lives depend on us the make the right call. There is no room for error..
Lynn
Tue May 29, 2007 1:30 am
A picture's worth a thousand words. I've read that report several times, but it never illustrated (or stuck in my mind) what happened the way that video does.
John
John
Tue May 29, 2007 3:42 am
This is definately my last post on this topic. I find the video hard to get out of my mind. It's absolutely heartbreaking to watch. 200-300 ft more and these guys would have pulled off a spectacular spin recovery in a WW2 twin at low level....no mean feat by any standards. I won't ever forget them.
Tue May 29, 2007 3:50 pm
Excellent points on all sides, and JDK I completely respect your feelings and opinion on this subject. I am absolutely not trying to tell anyone they're wrong...just call things like I see 'em.
I'm NOT a warbird operator -- I'm just an enthusiast who happens to have some high performance flying experience.
That is precisely the point. There's a video out there of a Caribou that had undergone turboprop conversion and it takes off on a test flight with the control locks on. It crashes right in front of the camera.
I think of that video every time I am taxiing out to take off and I cycle the flight controls to make sure they are free and clear. THAT video is burned into my memory -- and it makes me a safer pilot because of it.
Please DON'T ever forget it. Every one of us will be better off if we do not forget.
I'm NOT a warbird operator -- I'm just an enthusiast who happens to have some high performance flying experience.
Mossie wrote:I find the video hard to get out of my mind. It's absolutely heartbreaking to watch. 200-300 ft more and these guys would have pulled off a spectacular spin recovery in a WW2 twin at low level....no mean feat by any standards. I won't ever forget them.
That is precisely the point. There's a video out there of a Caribou that had undergone turboprop conversion and it takes off on a test flight with the control locks on. It crashes right in front of the camera.
I think of that video every time I am taxiing out to take off and I cycle the flight controls to make sure they are free and clear. THAT video is burned into my memory -- and it makes me a safer pilot because of it.
Please DON'T ever forget it. Every one of us will be better off if we do not forget.
Tue May 29, 2007 7:33 pm
I agree Randy. This stuff is horrible to watch and I don't know how I would feel about it if I had a loved one dying in a video on the internet. But I do have a 22 year old son who is a tailwheel CFI and dabbles in acro. He is at that age where he pretty much feels invincible in an airplane, just as I was when I was his age. I show him videos occasionally, especially those that are acro related, to try to show him that you can kill yourself regardless of skill level. Don't know if it sinks in or not.
Years ago, I watched a father and son crash and burn turning base to final. That's stuck with me ever since. I don't think anyone on this forum enjoys these things, but people make mistakes, and we can all learn from them.
Steve G
Years ago, I watched a father and son crash and burn turning base to final. That's stuck with me ever since. I don't think anyone on this forum enjoys these things, but people make mistakes, and we can all learn from them.
Steve G
Tue May 29, 2007 7:54 pm
Nathan wrote:I am sorry that you lost your friends there. I guess we all have to realize that life is not always far. I should know because my little sister died last year from cancer. Now I am alone and have no sibling to look after. You just have to take one day at a time just like I do.
Hi Nathan,
Sorry to hear of your loss. It is a tough and unfair world, indeed. Just a clarification, though, I didn't count the crew of the two aircraft as friends, I certainly did not know them that well myself, although I do have friends who were friends of theirs. I was just another journalist talking to aircrew. As Canso 42 said, "I've learned what a small world and tightly knit community we have." - and that's true and both a good thing and, at times a painful one.
Just one last comment, if I may. I certainly don't see this as a question of 'sides'; there are different views, and as I explained mine is based on personal experience, and I would be arrogant to expect anyone else to share those. Clearly, also, the thread has been analytical and aware of the feelings of those related to the lost airmen; something that's not always the case, but to the applauded here.
I'd rather sign out on a positive note. RR299 had been a stalwart of the British display scene for decades; and was a regular at the majority of warbird orientated shows. S Connor of Flying Machines TV has posted a great clip of RR299 flying at the Fighter Meet 96/7. For those that haven't seen a Mosquito fly, safely, this is what it looks like.
Link direct to the WMV file: http://www.flyingmachinestv.co.uk/MosquitoClipFM.wmv
Link to the page:
http://www.flyingmachinestv.co.uk/page1/page1.html
Ave atque vale.
Tue May 29, 2007 9:20 pm
You are right JDK, this has been a very educational and positive post, even though it deals with a tragic event.
Wed May 30, 2007 7:50 am
bipe215 wrote:But I do have a 22 year old son who is a tailwheel CFI and dabbles in acro. He is at that age where he pretty much feels invincible in an airplane, just as I was when I was his age. I show him videos occasionally, especially those that are acro related, to try to show him that you can kill yourself regardless of skill level. Don't know if it sinks in or not.
Years ago, I watched a father and son crash and burn turning base to final. That's stuck with me ever since. I don't think anyone on this forum enjoys these things, but people make mistakes, and we can all learn from them.
Back in 2003, I was at the New Braunfels, TX airshow - I had literally just gotten started with my instructor, and we were in the process of deciding where to rent aircraft. Anyway, just after the airshow, we were packing up, and this Cessna 172 took off, stayed low, then did an incredibly steep climb for a few seconds. At the top, they stalled, almost recovered control, but went into a spin and hit the ground. Several of us started running and I was second or third to the plane. It's something I would SO like to forget, but I NEVER want to forget it, either. One guy died instantly, the next died later in the hospital, and the third (whom we went to visit in the hospital) was very seriously injured. The thing that hit home was that my instructor had flown that same plane two or three days before the accident... I had some serious second thoughts before I decided to go on and get my license. Believe me, I take flying more seriously as a result.
Ryan
Wed May 30, 2007 11:44 am
jbell wrote:I checked "You Tube" but didn't find it. Where might I look?
Thanks.............John
Found it!
I for one look at it as if I were working for the NTSB. Taking it as a learning experience. Can someone send me the link via PM?