Warbird Information Exchange

Hi Bill,

Your guess is right. You complete a maneuver and you have to check to see that you have the smash for the next plus the alt. I'll be doing the competition in the Decathlon so there's a large safety factor built in as it's a pretty docile machine.

I can see why you'd avoid low level acro in Warbirds - I will as well.

Once I get done with the competition, then I'll move to the Extra 300 for higher power experience and snappier performance experience as a step to a Stearman and/or T6, and my acro rides will scale back.

But I must say that the consecutive maneuvers are really nice for keeping the mind working at a snappy pace so that nothing gets ahead of you..always good for Warbird flying.

I weigh 195, why do you ask?

Saville

Stearmans are great acro trainers because they are really slow, high drag, low roll rate, etc. They really teach energy management. John Mohr's stock Stearman routine is THE best airshow anywhere.
If you go from an Extra to a Stearman you're in for a shock. It would be alot better to do the Stearman and then move to Pitts, Extra's, etc than the other way around.
As far as the Pitts safety record, there was a summary a few years ago of all fatal pitts accidents. I can't find it now but the vast majority were low level carelessness. Some of the S2 accidents were poor CG/weight issues. Very few structural failures. An S1 will spin inverted out of a botched hammerhead so all types of spin training is important.
I rate the S1S as the best airplane I've ever flown, but of course I've never flown a Spitfire (hint)(I weigh 181).
Good luck!

Steve G

Very well said, bipe.

A trained monkey could do acro in an Extra. It's an amazing airplane that will do whatever you tell it to do with the stick. However, you actually have to know what you're doing to do acro in a Stearman, Clipped Wing Cub, T-6, and Big Iron Warbirds. I don't think it's a bad idea whatsoever to go and play in an Extra or Pitts (amazing airplane as well), but if it's experience towards getting into a Warbird that you're looking for, the Cadets in WWII did it right......Primary Trainer, Basic Trainer, Advanced Trainer. Become competent in those and you'll likely do quite well in the Big Iron.

Just my two cents worth.

Gary

I'm assuming your Decathalon is a 8KCAB (180hp and CS prop).. If you can, take a step back from the Decathalon and do some acro in a 7KCAB Citabria or a 115HP 7ECA. You'll be suprised even in that small step, how much more work you'll have to do.

The most important thing is to just keep brushed up on your taildragger skills. I was lucky enough to get a T-6 checkout when I only had 220 TT - although 195 of that was TW in a Citabria and various other taildraggers.

Good luck and keep at it.

Chris

I have to agree about stock Stearmans being great trainers for your first aerobatics. Looking back in my log book, it was March of 1967 and I was 20 years old when I was introduced to a PT-17 in San Antonio while I was in college. After the basic check out, the former CPT instructor asked if I had ever done much aerobatics and the fun began. The Stearman made you work to do even the basic aerobatic maneuvers correctly, especially snap rolls, due to the high drag and low power. But it was great.

Later, in the late 1970s, I owned a Pitts S-2A and that was such an easy aircraft to do aerobatics in - you could almost stop in mid maneuver to check things out and then continue on with the powerful controls and power of the engine and constant speed prop. Of course the S-1s were more powerfull, lighter, but I always enjoyed my S-2A as I could give others rides and just work out the day's stresses with a few negative Gs.

I just noticed that I was actually introduced to the "Terrible Texan", AT-6, just a month before my first flight in the Stearman and like Chris, I was fairly low time, around 230 hours total. That was a back seat check out to be able to possibly fly a P-51 (didn't as he crashed it the next weekend or so) but that's another story for another time.

Get as much time in as many tailwheel aircraft and different "interesting" aircraft as you can and you may find that if you do get to fly a P-51, it will be much less demanding, aside from dealing with the power-related issues, than you think. All the best and fly safe.

Oh, don't forget to ask about the vicegrip pliers, if you do fly a Mustang.

Randy

Hi Chris,
Actually it's a Super Decathlon so 200 hp and yeah CS prop. I also try to do all my other flying in a Piper Arrow to rack up Complex time.

Thanks for the good wished and comments. I shall certainly keep at it!

Hi Randy,

I take the points made about reverting to a slower, less poweful aircraft to do acro in as P-51 prep. Still I think the Decathlon acro is very valuable to me as it's certainly unusual attitudes, more seat of the pants flying, more to learn, keep my brain going, and makes me a better pilot overall. It's not a career but a stepping stone.

Also it's something I've always wanted to do irrespective of Warbird flying. And I tend to like to add things to my repertiore in defineable chunks. Why compete in the Primary class at a competition?

Cuz I'm competitive I guess


So that's why I got a tailwheel endorsement in a J-3 before I started the acro in the S Decathlon. Even though I could have done both at the same time. Also, while I'm sure it's very beneficial to do acro in a Stearman or a T-6 it's going to be more expensive than doing it in a Decathlon. So I'll gain the necessary skills in the Decathlon and have one more set of skills before I step up into the more pricey planes

Thanks to all for your time and thoughts.

Steve, I fully agree, John Mohr's act in the stock Stearman is one I watch in awe. When you see an F-16, or Extra act, as good as Patty Wagstaff or someone like that is impressive, but the plane is a lot of it. The Stearman with that big wing is providing lots of lift, but John is making it do everything else.I have flown a Stearman just enough to appreciate what he does. It is the only plane I have ever been in that had stall characteristics as good or better than a Merlin Spitfire. I took note of your weight, don't they have any Krispy Kreme stores where you live?

_________________
Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Bill,

No Krispy Kreme here but Duncan Donuts is planning to build.
That's another great thing about a Stearman, you can fit some big people in 'em. I flew one years ago that was owned by a guy that weighed over
350 lbs. Only guy I ever saw that filled up a Stearman cockpit!

Steve G

Lately what I've been doing is practicing the Primary sequence for competition:

One turn Spin
Loop
Half Cuban 8
Slow Roll
Greater than 60 degree banked, 90 degree turn.

The sequence is coming together pretty well.

But a little more related to Warbird flying is that after a couple of sequences, I've been working on botched maneuvers. The instructor will try a maneuver and screw it up and I'm to take control when I decide it's a problem and get us out of it.
I'm being trained to handle 4 botched maneuvers:

Screwed up Spin which is really a Spiral

High Speed Recovery - let's avoid ripping the wings off

Low speed recovery - Get the nose down

Tailslide - Let's recover before a tail surface gets torn off.

I like this sort of training. And is one of the major reasons I'm doing acro in the first place.

Sounds like good training to have, particularly if your instructor is good one (which it sounds like he is). You've got to make those mistakes and know what to do to fix them. Keep practicing!

Gary

Hi Gary,

Yeah my instructor is really great. Lucky to have found him. And that's what he's doing..letting me see the mistakes in a safe environment so that when I am alone I'll recognize the problem before it gets critical.

Pretty standard training methodology but taken a notch up in in severity of consequences as compared to private pilot training.

Just a quick note to let you know that I'm still working on building my skills to be able to fly warbirds:

Got signed off to solo in the Decathlon and I'm flying it a lot to build up my taildragger time, perfect my acro maneuvers, and take off/land in a variety of interesting and "exciting" conditions.

For a while I was working towards competing in the Basic category of Aerobatic Competitions. But in thinking about it, it occured to me that it's a digression. There's a lot to be done to be able to fly warbirds and I don't see how acro competition helps.

In a few earlier posts, some people suggested I do acro in a Stearman or a Citabria. Stearmans are hard to find around here. However one FBO I fly that tells me they are going to have a Citabria to rent. So when that a/c shows up I'll check out in it and start flying acro in that.

While I'm not working towards competing, I'm using the IAC acro sequence as a basis for practice:

45 degree climb
one turn spin (end up perfectly vertical and making that one turn 360 degrees)

Half Cuban 8
Loop
greater than 60 degreen banked, 180 degree turn
aileron roll.


Also, I had a chance to fly with Chuck Gardner in one of his Texan's when they were up to Connecticut. Chuck outdid himself in giving me MUCH more than the standard ride. I asked him to be critical of every move and he was - I wanted this to be a true learning experience in the T-6. He obliged me, and I'm grateful.

We flew formation, did loops, barrel rolls, Half cuban 8's, aileron rolls, stalls, accelerated stalls from the top of the loop. I even spent several minutes perfecting simple turns - the exact amount of rudder - much to Chuck's torturous boredom, I'm sure.

While I didn't experience any of the T-6's alleged tough behavior, I must say that I didn't feel like I was seated in a 600 hp a/c. It's a GAS to fly. I have a High Power endorsement but it didn't mean much as I flew a 300 hp a/c and there wasn't a whole lot of instruction involved - just a checkout in a Cherokee 6. So when I climbed into the T-6, I expected some sort of High Powered Wickedness.

Nothing of the sort.

As we were heading back we had to drop down a hole in the cloud and I "danced" back and forth as we headed down. Chuck asked me what I was doing,

"Dancing"

I'm seriously considering taking the Warbird Adventure T-6 checkout course in Kissimme.........

Anyways that's what I'm up to. IFR will begin soon.

It sounds like you are doing well. For normal non acro flying the Decathlon is pretty easy so you want to be precise and accurate in it, approach at the correct speed, not 10 knots too fast, touchdown in the first 1/4 runway, on centerline etc. Learn both 3 pt and wheel landings, slips, crosswinds, etc. Go to other nearby airports or fields to practice landings. Incorporate simulated gear check into your mental process for later.
A 220 hp Stearman is such a good acro trainer because it takes a lot of control movement to do the manuevers and some patience. It has more lift than a T-6 wing, but less power and speed. It is no snap to land if it gets windy.
I wish I had gotten over to Kissimmee for a litttle more T-6 or P-51 dual time, but I was trying not to spend too much.

_________________
Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Hi Bill,
My instructor was a USAF F-4 pilot so precision was the name of the game. I do both 3pt and wheelies, quite comfy with slipping....

in fact when I fly Piper Warriors and Arrows, I usually don't use flaps and slip, instead, if it's necessary to burn off alt.

Every flight in the Decathlon ends with at least 3-4 landings. Yesterday's were with some nice 13 kt crosswinds and enjoyable gusts, so they were all wheelies.

My GUMP check always includes a concious gear check even in a fixed gear a/c - I work best by forming habits.

Thanks!