Warbird Information Exchange

I have them all and that book is definitely the best intro to aerobatics. The follow-on book, "Advanced Aerobatcs" is quite good as well and offers a lot of explanation of advanced spins.

Back on spins, to me the important thing is to get comfortable enough that you can look over the nose in any attitude and establish the direction of the yaw, so of course you can apply the correct rudder input. It can be harder than you think! When I was getting my Pitts check-out, we did, at my insistence, about 12 hours of spins (I needed 15 TT in the plane for the insurance). I would close my eyes, and the instructor would put the plane into a fully developed spin of some mode (e.g. inverted accelerated), and I would open my eyes and then try to recover. A couple times, I got it wrong, which will scare the !@# out of you.

It's true that with most any airplane it takes two turns for the spin to fully develop, and the key is to get the aircaft stopped in that period. Most airplanes will oscillate the nose up and down every 90 deg during the first couple turns, which slows the initial rate of rotation. (In competition spins, this can be a problem, as you want to recover straight down and not have to "push" down. However, "catching" the oscillation can be quite an advantage when using power and/or out-spin aileron to enter a flat spin).

I've never flown any fighter (though I would sure like to!), but have done some spinning in a T-6. One thing to watch out for is that, due to the heavy rotational inertia on bigger birds, it can take several turns to stop a fully developed spin after the correct inputs are made. You can start to question whether or not you have made the right inputs, which is why it is important to be able to establish the direction of the yaw (and trust your decision). I did 6 turns in a T-6 once before initiating recovery, and I think it took 2.5 turns for it stop after that. Too violent a recovery too early can have the opposite effect...crossing over into an inverted spin. That's when it gets really confusing.

I once blindly and stupidly agreed to ride backseat in a Decathlon to a former Russian AF pilot at an aerobatic contest. He slammed the stick forward in the recovery and we crossed over into an inverted spin. Then, thinking he was still going to recover as if he was upright, he kept the controls where they were and froze! I had to physically beat my fists on the back of his head to get him to release the controls and recover by about 1700 ft. Scary stuff.

Obviously, when flying warbirds you will probably avoid any intentional spins. That said, however, I think some recent high-profile crashes - the Firefly in the UK comes to mind - may have been avoided had the pilots been better practiced/more proficient on the recognition of and recovery from incipient spins.

Aerobatic books: Duanne Cole's books "Roll Around a Point" (or something like that) and Bill Thomas,"Fly for Fun" and "Fly for Fun to Win"

Saville. to finish, So before you go to 51 be pretty good in the T-6. I'd rate me an 8 then, solid, but not trained on acro, formation, or crosswind landings. So what to expect in 51? Of course know the manual and the cockpit well. POWER; you have a T-6 plus a thousand! For takeoff, at 55' or 61"the engine is like a wild horse(Mustang). Be smooth on the throttle,don't rush the tail up, it's not going to levitate like a Cub, but is easy to keep straight. Once the gear is up and you level off it is noise, speed, and visiblity. It's special like driving a Porsche fast into a corner. When you play around respect it as a high wing load fighter. Hard Gs down low and slow have gotten some guys in trouble. Do your practice stalls, approach, go arounds, and when you return for landing remember you are now moving 2 or times faster than you were used to, everything happens much faster. If the pattern is not right don't force it. Many pilots use flaps to slow to gear speed, I prefer to do gear first cause I saw a friend land gear up after he lead with the flaps. I recall an ideal power setting, about 20 or 22" that you can use and just add another notch of flaps at each leg of the pattern. Before I ever flew a one I asked a top pilot, Jay Cullum for advice; he stressed the base turn under 2 gs and no less than 120 mph. The flaps are very effective and the last notch on final gives good visiblity over the nose. I think guys want about 100 maybe a little more, remember you are not at combat weight. My first landing try was a series of hops down the runway as I had not done a wheel landing in some time. The best 51 landing I made was, 90 at the numbers, power off, and tail low 3 point, but not quite stall. The owner said very good, but no slower. You need to use the owners method, Most US guys like on mains, I've seen Brits use 3 pt. If I had my choice I'd go in between with a tail low almost 3 point touchdown. Below 100 the ailerons lose a lot of efectiveness, so don't stall and drop a wing. Go around is ok, but there is not much go until you get those big flaps up; it just sits there and makes noise. The gear and tires have good suspension an track well once down. Take it slow on taxi if the tail is unlocked. After you park you'll notice you are sweating, smiling and want to do it again. It seems like you are on the right path just keep on. I can't see how the Seneca relates much to a fighter. Stallion 51 is of course expensive, don't know if anyone good is doing it cheaper. I can tell you when I flew with Lee some years ago he was one of the best instructors I have seen and Richard and Pete had the plane first class. Lee has flown guys in the front seat that are average general aviation pilots, and to me that is a lot more of a challenge than flying someone with T-6, Spitfire, or Corsair time. Good luck

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Thanks to all for the title recommendations. Any further ideas for best practices doing spin training?

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REMEMBER THE SERGEANT PILOTS!

HI Bill,

The reason for the multi-engine:


A long time ago some of the old timers also suggested some experience in light twins such as the Cessna 421 and the Aerostar. The thought was that these twins required a lot of planning and get pretty busy in the takeoff and landing environment, also the speeds are getting close to the ones used in the Mustang. Plus there's the experience with engine out handling which can be something similar to the huge torque effects of a warbird.

I see it as a help though maybe a limited one. But also a signoff that's good to have on it's own.

thanks for all the imput

Fascinating thread.

Dunno how much use it is as instruction, but 'Aerobatics' by Neil Williams contains one of the most amazing aviation survival stories recounting Neil's wing failure in a Zlinn. Now out of print, but worth tracking a copy down. It's very readable, as he as a good writer, and flew everything he could get his mitts on, aerobatic and warbird, and won prizes as well - much missed.

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Yeah, get the skinniest instructor you can find. No joke! Particularly in a tandem airplane, the lighter the instructor, the more the spin characteristics with the instructor will resemble the spin characteristics solo. In something like a Decathlon, there is a noticeable difference solo, particularly in advanced spin modes.

Neil Williams book was reprinted a couple years ago, and is still available new on Amazon US. The Goulian book is a better primer on the subject, IMHO, but the Williams book is definitely a great read.

http://www.amazon.com/Aerobatics-Neil-W ... 503&sr=8-2

JDK, I have both Williams books. Everyone should get, AIRBORNE,by Neil Williams. Who is this guy? A Canadian schooled in England, he became perhaps England's best modern pilot, nine times national aerobatic champion. He flew everythign from antiques to jets, and also this guy could write. It is entertaining and fascinating, funny and gripping. One example: the experience of a crew who makes a difficult approach and landing in IMC weather; then complains that the "blind landing system" in not working well. Maintenance checks and notes on the logs, "Blind landing system not fitted to this plane". Neil's chapter on his first Spitfire flight is almost poetry and shows what it feels like and the respect that Brits have for this little fighter with its history and performance. The story of the Zlin that broke in flight, "The Day I Should Have Died" is one chapter and shows pilot ability most of us only dream of.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

I found my official Pilot Manual for F-51D, here is the quote on spin and recovery: "Power on spins are extremely dangerous in this airplane. Close throttle completely and apply controls as for power off spin recovery. Hold full opposite rudder with sick in neutral until recovery is effected. As many as five or six turns are made after rudder is applied for recovery, and 9000 to 10,000 feet of altitude is lost." What is my point? It is all very well to learn spin training in a Decathalon (I did this myself with Duane Cole), but it has about as much relation to a fighter as a poodle does to a pit bull. I can't say with any real knowledge about a Pitts, except there have been many accident spinning in. I have spun my Spitfire: Intentionally, at 12,000 AGL, Power off and Only letting it go 1 turn. Sure, I recovered, but I would not want to do it at pattern altitude. The 51 manual says the it is hard to spin, it recovers ok, but 1250 feet is lost, for a Power Off spin. If one is flying acro or even landing power is on, and the departure may surprise the pilot. I believe T-6 and fighter training should emphasize recognizing and avoiding stalls and spins.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Not really sure how we connected training to fly a P-51 and spins....I only responded to a post that mentioned spins as an aside by saying my PPL curricula didn't include them and I wanted training in them, so I got the training elsewhere.

Sorry for the diversion.

Saville, as for the multi-engine training, yes it would be fun to do and ads promise a rating in 3 days. Wonder if they would really rent you one of their planes after their checkout? I don't think it is a good as time in a warbird. An hour in a dual 51 is best, or more T-6 hours. As for torque, a fighter has trim, 3 way in 51, 2 way in Spitfire, so you are not fighting torque,except on go around and you come on smoothly with power. The compexity is best learned by time sitting in the actual cockpit of the real airplane and going through the steps in your mind.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

....with air under your butt.

The insurance from the FBO I rent from won't allow me to rent a twin even if I get the signoff and pass the checkride - you need 500 hours TT.

So I'll start looking for a Stearman..or maybe a Waco.

And in the meantime continue with the acro, and any stooging around in a Warrior type - I'll do it in the Arros and pile up more Complex time.

thanks

Thought it might be time for an update:

I've been working pretty hard at the acro. Had a long gap over the holidays and so I had to become re-acclimated - tell my brain everything was really ok as the earth spun around. Once that happened I got down to business. Expanded my repertoire to one turn spins, Half Cuban 8's, Reverse Half Cuban 8's (pretty sucky at those - just started) and hitting the slow rolls pretty hard. Recently, I've started tacking one maneuver onto the next to build the Primary Competition sequence:

1 turn spin
loop
half Cuban 8
Slow Roll
the 60 degree bank, 90 degree take a bow turn.


It's one thing to do each maneuver in isolation. Quite another to do one after another. You have to keep focused.

But it's all a lot of fun and I'm totally comfy in the Super Decathlon. My plan is to compete in the Primary class at one Acro competition just for the fun of it. Then get some time in the Extra 300.

I don't know if it's sheer brainlessness or just too busy to worry about it but I'm pretty comfy in any attitude and doing these maneuvers never seemed scary in the least. Probably the former.

Saville, it is great to see that you have really been doing all that training. As for as acro goes, you are past me. I don't do all the multiple moves acro. I have flown a Decathalon with Duane Cole a little. My guess is that when you complete each move you need to check that you still have airspeed and maybe altitude before continuing the next one. I spoke to a young pilot in Galveston who was doing a barrel roll in a Decthalon and crashed; he doesn't recall what went wrong, but did survive after serious injuries. I think the safety record in novice acro contests is pretty good, but I'm speaking about something that I really don't know. There have been a lot of Pitts accidents. I am reluctant to do too much low altitude acro in warbirds as this type of flying acounts for the majority of our losses over the years, and it is not just begginers. Just orienting toward warbirds, I think a little time in Stearman and Pitts would be valuable to you. Just curious, how much do you weigh?

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK