Warbird Information Exchange

Hi Rob,

Actually I remember two Corsairs on display; one in
simulated flight and one on the flight deck. And as
a WWII USN aviation buff, yes I love it!

Certainly if they sold their Lake Birds they could raise
a lot of money to use for restoration. But we've dis-
cussed this issue before. The museum owns the
aircraft and they can choose what to do with them

I like the fact that Lake Birds are on display loan
at other facilities around the country. Battleship
Park outside Mobile, Patriot's Point, the Lex, the
Intrepid, the Hornet, and other places all have
birds on loan from NMNA; some of them Lake Birds.
Ooops, almost forgot O'Hare Airport in Chicago. If
they sold all those birds they couldn't do that.

I guess it all comes down to choices. I think they
are doing a pretty good job. You think they should
go in another direction.

My challenge to you is accomplish your goal of
getting the P5M attention. If you organize those
guys with the energy and zeal you have shown
here before the P5M is as good as done. Rob,
if you want to work within the system to accomplish
your goal it is attainable. If you just want to bash
the Navy I don't see you making much progress.

Now, that said let me hasten to add that you are
entitled to your opinions. I certainly respect your
right to disagree with me.

Regards,
Owen

Rob,

Hey, that's great news about the P5M. I'm glad to hear
the ball is already rolling on that one. I'm sure there is
still much to be done so you have your work cut out for
you.

I don't have my BuNos handy but the two you quote
sound familar. The one on deck is done up as Boyington's
#86, and the one in flight has a checkerboard cowl.

I want to go in another direction now. Much has been
said about putting more of the Lake Birds in private
hands. I must say that I like to watch them fly as much
as anyone. But now just consider this..... The ONLY
birdcage Corsair flying is now in New Zealand (the last
I heard). There are not a lot of Americans that will see
that bird. The ONLY flying P-40B/C was headed to
England to be part of TFC when it was purchased by
Paul Allen. Not a lot of Americans have seen that bird
either. Also I believe Mr. Allen has three Zeroes.
I understand Mr. Allen will soon open at least a part
of his collection to the public which is wonderful. I
know one day I surely want to see it.


Now I am a believer that if a man had the money to
buy a car, an airplane, or a piece of property it's his
to do with as he wishes. Now one always hopes the
buyer "would do the right thing" but it doesn't always
happen. If the Lake Birds are sold then they might go
overseas, they might be locked in a hanger away from
the public eye, or worse, they might be restored to flying
condition and destroyed by a guy with more money than
ability not to mention sense. (I do not want to start a
debate about "to fly 'em" or "not to fly 'em.) We all know
this has happened on occasion.

As long as NMNA retains control of those aircraft the
above scenarios are not gonna happen. A few may
get traded as others have but I believe the bulk of them
will wind up on display in the US where future generations
and see and appreciate them. Beyond that NMNA had
almost a million visitors last year. That's a lot of folks.

Next, why have I not heard a cry raised about Paul
Allen having three Zeroes? What about Jack Rousch
with three P-51s? These are just two private owners
with more than one example of a type. In previous
posts we discussed USAFM having multiple P-51s, B-17s,
and B-29s. Again I ask, why is it wrong for NMNA to
have several of the same bird but not for USAFM or
private individuals?

Blue skies,
Owen

Rob,

I am as distressed as anyone over the Brewster Corsair
being eaten up by the Zero (sp?) muscles on the bottom of
Lake Michigan.

I can't speak to the specifics of the Corsair when it was
Harry Doan's. Was that one of the birds tied up in his
estate?

Also, I have no knowledge of the A&T contract. I know
those guys did a good job to my knowledge. But consider
this......Before the C-130 flap, before all the suits and counter suits, and multiple investigations of possible misconduct those birds were coming up on a regular
basis. As a byproduct of all the legal maneuvering
there is now a byzantine array of rules, regs, and
restrictions that never before existed. Pensacola
can no longer go get them. Everything now must
go through Naval Historical. Now some may argue
that this is a good thing. But I wonder if it is a good
example of "be careful what you wish for". The bottom
line is this....before all the hoopla the birds were coming
up. Since the dust settled from the hoople they aren't.
So, with an open mind, ask yourself are we (as warbird
enthuiasts) better off?

Blue skies,
Owen

Most of the lake birds are still at the bottom of the lake, and will remain there indefinitely until they are corroded to a point of not being worth recovering. Whatever the intent of the Navy's policy, the result will be that these aircraft will never be on display, EVER! I guess that if the Navy can't have them due to financial constraints, they want to make sure that nobody does.



Why do you think that airplane didn't in fact go to the UK? Could there be another in the wings?????



Some of the Zeroes are still under restoration. I'm sure FHC has something in mind for them. The FHC collection is already open to the public...



Once they become private property they have value in the marketplace. They will be recovered, conserved, or restored. Right now in the Navy's stewardship they are being destroyed.

Despite any crashes, there has been an intense net gain in warbirds flying and on static display in private hands.

Their is no incentive in the "public" sector to do any more than the Navy and other public entities are doing now due to funding constraints. The private sector is where all the real activity is. Look at the dozens of restorations coming out of the private sector (mostly flying examples) compared to the handful (of statics) coming from the public sector. The AF Museum has a B-24, but how does that compare to the Collings Foundation B-24 tour? Which is more valuable from a standpoint of promoting the rememberance and celebration of history?



Very few people are willing to travel to see a static display of aircraft compared to those who first experience warbirds at airshows (which essentially come to them), which are dynamic events that attract many "thrillseekers," not just people interested "only" in aircraft.



The quantity is not the issue, at least FHC's Zeroes and Rousch's P-51's aren't dissolving at the bottom of the ocean while they try to keep others from saving them.

The public sector also has different responsibilities than does the private sector. For one, I don't care if Paul Allen squanders all his money, but I do care if the Navy has to pay someone 3 times as much to restore something (MY tax dollars) because they squandered the opportunity to let someone recover one for the Navy to keep one for themselves. The current policy is not only shortsighted, it can't work!

Wow, so many points to address....

I will begin with your last paragraph as it really
grabbed my interest. You refer to the "Navy pay-
ing three times as much to restore something".
Please tell me more about this. Which aircraft
were involved? Who was the restorer? Did you
get to see something with the amounts involved?
I really want to hear more.

Like everyone else I hope one day the rest of
the Lake Birds come up. The point I was trying
to make was that with all the rules, regulations,
and procedures now in place for the USN to get
them it is much MORE difficult than before. This
situation grew out of all the allegations and in-
vestigations that many in the warbird community
support. What I was trying to articulate was that
possibly this is a case of "be careful what you
wish for, you may get it". The ability of Pensacola
to get the planes is gone. It has to go through
NH now and is a lot more complicated. Before
the new rules and regs the birds were coming up
regularly, now they are not.

I don't doubt for a minute that there are more
P-40B/Cs that will emerge, probably from Russia.
However the point I was trying to make was that
the ONLY current flying example almost left this
country and subsequently in a collection that was
not open to the public.

I really can't agree with you that a lot of people
aren't "willing to travel to see a display of static
aircraft". NMNA annually is the number two or
number thtree tourist attraction in Florida. Annual
attendance for the last several years has been
just under a million folks. Now that's not a lot
compared to Disney but I bet it's a lot more than
Fantasy of Flight, BomberTown, and the other
warbird oriented outfits in Fl combined. I have not
seen figures for how many folks tour the Collings
Foundation birds in a year. I would just add that I
go spend a few bucks with them whenever they
are in the area just support their mission. My flights
on both Nine-O-Nine and A Dragon And His Tail are
something I'll never forget. Definitely, flying in a
warbird takes the experience to another level. To
me both approaches are very effective just different.

In some of my exchanges with Rob quantity was an
issue. He felt (I believe) that the USN didn't need
several examples of the same aircraft. (See previous
posts.) I raised the matter of Allen and Rousch having
multiple examples as a comparison. I also included
USAFM as an institution that had numerous examples
of a single type. The point I was making with Rob was
why is it wrong for the navy to have several but OK
for these other folks? And I believe the USN owned
aircraft to which Rob referred were the already recovered
Lake Birds now in storage in Pensacola. Perhaps I
misunderstood. (Jump in here Rob.)

Your turn,
Owen

Hi Rob,
I understand the distinction between the recovery
policy of USAFM and NMNA. From your previous posts
I got the impression that you felt it was unjust for the
NMNA to have several Corsairs, Wildcats, Dauntlesses,
etc. Did I misunderstand?

As I stated before the recovered Lake Birds are NOT
sitting outside. They are secured in a brick building.
For a time they were outside but have been indoors
for several years.

Kermit's Fantasy of Flight is a great place to visit. When
I pass through that part of the state I never miss it. I
don't have figures for it but I can tell you from experience
that a parking place is a lot easier to find there on a
weekend than it is at NMNA.

Please tell me more about the Black Shadow deal.....

Blue skies,
Owen

Hi Rob,
The best I remember the P-40B/C was restored in
GA. not FL. A couple of days ago we had a post in this
thread from an Alan Brooks explaining the the P-40 was
owned by Don Brooks and restored by Tom Wilson. I
do not remember the Zero being gone anywhere for
restoration. To the best of my knowledge it remains
much as it arrived from Quantico. I think you're mistaken
about those two birds going to Black Shadow. I do
remember some SBD wings coming back from there.
I think they were the ones on the bird at Battleship Park.
Do you know of anything else Stafford may have worked
on? Can you give me some sense of the dollars involved;
what was paid versus what it should have been? This
is an area where I am kinda ignorant.

You can disagree with me all you want about the Lake
Birds being stored inside. Just remember I'm a lot
closer to Pensacola than you are and get over there
a lot more often. Tell you what, I'll bet you the cost
of a round trip down here that I'm telling the truth.

The last Lake Bird to be outside was an early TBF. I
only remember ONE and don't remember a Corsair
center section at all. There were some SBD wings
outside longer that the rest of the Lake Birds. The
area where you saw them is being turned into more
parking area so more of those people who won't
travel long distances to see static aircraft can park.

I believe that last TBF got shipped out to another
museum to restore and display. I need to check on
that and get more specific info.

The gondola is still outside. However the nose of
it is in restoration being prepared for museum dis-
play. It will replace the car being reclaimed by NASM
that has been displayed for some years. Also inside
undergoing restoration at this time is the "Ghost Ship".
This car is also believed to be the one that flew some
material out to the Hornet for the Doolittle Raiders.

We will agree to disagree on the quantity of planes
either on hand or on display. I love going to NMNA
and seeing multiple Wildcats, Dauntlesses, Hellcats,
and Corsairs. And as the Lake Birds belong to NMNA
then they can rest in their brick building until the navy
decides to restore, trade, or barter them.

Now tell me more about the matter regarding the Lex,
Raz, and the NH. I didn't really follow you there.

Regards,
Owen

I was recently told by a very reliable source that Lex Cralley was in fact offered a trade a few years ago that included a Lake Michigan Wildcat and possibly some money for the Brewster (I can't remember the money deatils), but he turned it down as inadequate. If true, this implies tacitly that the Navy accepted Cralleys' claim of ownership. It certainly was his choice to make whether to accept the trade based on the value of what he felt he had versus what they offered, but my understanding is the Navy did try and offer up a deal. For whatever it is worth. Gary

My statement was not intended to be taken literally as I was not referring to any particular restoration. My point was intended to be one of logic- the longer these planes stay underwater and are subjected to further deterioration, the less of the aircraft is there (or is restorable), hence an increased restoration cost.



Yes, but would it have been better for it to remain in the remote tundra in Russia? Then virtually nobody would have seen it, not even Paul Allen- the situation with the lake/ocean birds now.

So what if they get exported! Why deprive people in other coutries from seeing these aircraft? Should we send all the Zeroes back to Japan and all the Spitfires back to the UK? There is a natural ebb and tide as these aircraft change hands among collectors.



I've never been there, nor have I been to any of the Collings Foundation home bases. But I have seen both the Collings B-17 and B-24. They came to an airport near me. How many people see the Collings aircraft in one year? Probably 500,000 in one week at Oshkosh?? The Planes of Fame tour allows those around the country to see a P-38, a P-40, and an FG-1D that they normally would never get to see. I saw the EAA B-17 flying from Long Beach airport last month while I was walking across the street at work. Can't see the NMNA from there...

The point is that the NMNA is GENERALLY available to poeple only in the region, and I'll bet that the NMNA is not a primary venue to draw tourists to Florida. Maybe it is a good location for the NMNA, but I doubt that people go there and then decide, "What the heck! Since we are at the NMNA, we might as well go see Mickey!"



I apologize if I have sounded argumentative- that was not my intent. I am very passionate about this topic, as are you and Rob. I think that it is important to get all the points talked out so that a united front can be formed to change the policy into what we want.

HI I HAVE HAD FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE WITH NAVY POLICY!FIRST MR OWEN YOU HAVE SENT SEVERAL REPLYS SUPPORTING NAVAL POLICY ON PRESEVATION OF HISTORIC A/C.THIS POLICY SHOULD BE CALLED THE DESTUCTION OF HISTORIC NAVAL A/C.THEIR POLICY IS MORE DIRECTED TO LOSS ,DESTRUCTION,SALE FOR SCRAP,KEEP THEM FROM THE PEOPLE WHO SPEND A LARGE PART OF THERE INCOME,LIFE AND SKILLS TO RETURN THESE LOST BIRDS TO THE PUBLIC EYES,ALL IN THE NAME OF PROTECTION OF HISTORIC ARTIFACTS!!!!ANY AVIATION MUSEUM IS AS FAR AS IM CONCERNED IS FANTASTIC,IT GIVES ALL OF US THE CHANCE TO SEE PRESERVED ARTFACTS OF TIME GONE BY!YOU SEEM TO SUPPORT THE NAVYS STAND ON THE HORDING AIR FRAMES FOR THE CONTINUED DECAY OF THEIR CONDITION RATHER THAN SELL THEM AND RAISE MONEY FOR THERE OWN IMPROVEMENT.IF A PERSON SPENDS SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR A DERILECT AIRFRAME CHANCES ARE THAT IT WILL BE RESTORED TO LIKE NEW CONDITION AND BE PROUDLY DISPLAYED FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS NOT JUST RAT HOLED FOR PRESERVATIONS SAKE!!WHY WERE SEVRAL NAVY WW2 A/C SCRAPED AT BARBERS POINT? HOW MANY GUYS WOULD HAVE PAYED BIG MONEY FOR THE F6F HELLCAT,F4F WILDCAT,TBF,SB2CS,ANDLOTS OF PARTS THAT WERE ALL SOLD FOR SCRAP,SHREADED AND SENT TO JAPAN AS RECYCLED ALUMINUM?IS THIS THE TYPE OF PRESEVATION THAT WE AS TAX PAYER ARE WILLING TO SUPPORT BY THE PEOPLE THAT ARE SO CONCERNED ABOUT PRESERVING OUR NAVAL HISTORY?THIS ALL HAPPENED JUST A FEW SHORT YEARS AGO,IM LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE GOTTEN THE SB2C-1A WHICH WAS THE ONLY AIRFRAME TO EXCAPE THE SCRAP MAN WHICH WILL SOON BE RESTORED TO AIR WORTHY CONDITION!!!THE NAVY SPENT OVER $100,000.00 TRYING TO KEEP THE A-25 WE RECOVERED FROM LAKE WASHINGTON WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN SCRAPED,SO A PRIVATE PERSON COULDNT OWN IT!!ITS NOW ALMOST TOTALLY RESTORED AND ON ITS WAY TO THE U.S. AIR FORCE MUSEUM, THEY WILL HAVE A SB2C ON DISPLAY, THE NAVAL MUSEUM NOW DOES NOT HAVE A SB2C ON DISPLAY !! IS THIS THE PRESERVATION POLICY THAT WE AS THE GENERAL PUBLIC WANT FOR THE FUTURE OF ALL THE NAVAL A/C THAT STILL REMAIN OUT THERE WAITING TO BE RECOVERED?TAKE THE TIME TO PUT YOUR FEELINGS IN PRINT AND SEND THEM TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN ,NAVAL HISTORY CENTER OR WHOM EVER YOU THINK CAN MAKE A POSITIVE CHANGE FOR THE RECOVERY RESTORATION AND PRESEVATION OF ALL OF OUR NAVAL HISTORY, THIS IS OUR HISTORY NOT JUST A FEW WHO REALLY DONT CARE AS LONG AS GUYS LIKE ME ,LEX, ECT HAVE THE GUTS TO TRY TO SAVE WHAT WE CAN, STILL HAVE OUR HANDS TIED!!THIS IS OUR CHILDERNS FUTURE NOT JUST THE FOLKS THAT ARE TRYING THERE BEST TO DENY THEM THE CHANCE TO SEE THESE ARTFACTS RESTORED TO A DISPLAYABLE CONDITION THANKS MIKE

Thank you, Mike R., for the response from one who's been in the trenches against the NMNA and NHC!

I'm curious. Now that the NMNA is Helldiverless, do they contact you on any kind of basis to "swing a deal" (I understand completely if you're not comfortable divulging that kind of information)?

I know I speak for many on this board by saying how much I admire your work. Will you be heading this way for OSH? I'm sure quite a few would find it a privilege to buy you a beer (or ice tea, or whatever you prefer pounding the ramp).

Dan

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It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

DITO mike
telecon was great the other day... lets keep in touch more often...lets work on how we can help each other on the next project and both end up with something..

It looks like TIGHAR is getting invloved with the Marshall Island TBD's...
http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Devastat ... escrip.htm

Hehe... I love this little quote on their website...

If the Devastators current condition is any clue to the contents of said regulations then I'd have to say that said regulations need to be changed. Guess TIGHAR must be happy with them.

Ryan

_________________
Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Lemme' guess: TIGHAR is going to announce that in the back seat of one of the TBD's they found Amelia Earhart's shoe.

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.