Warbird Information Exchange

Glad to see everyone involved with this discussion....but wish to clarify a few points.....The P-40C is privately owned, unless he has recently exchanged or swapped aircraft. It is/was owned by Don Brooks. Yes, the Liberty Belle B-17 and P-40E Don Brooks. The aircraft was partially restored by Tom wilson. This was one of the five P-40 aircraft recovered from Russia. The other C model is now owned by Chris Gruys. Another lake aircraft that has been sold, was again sold through Mark Clark. It was a SBD-4. It is in the Florida area, under restoration? Can anyone confirm? It is registered. The SBD-3 on the second floor of the museum was restored by a good friend in Griffin, Ga., John Neel. This airplane was really a mess, but John and co. did a great job rebuilding the aircraft. No rust piles under this one! John also did the Kawanishi (George). This was not a restoration, but a cleanup/repair/display of the aircraft as is, rather than a perfect model. Now to Navy policies. My opinion, is that the Navy should have first pick of what it needs for the collection, then its open game, WITH the stipulation that all recoveries are 1) documented, 2)approved (no wargraves, etc), 3) some workable sompensation package (either way), that will allow a clear title. I think after the Quonset and Champlin fiasco, that I am leaning away from this and say take your chances. Opinions? Alan

Rob,

My previous post referred to duplicate examples in the
collection of the USAF Museum at Wright-Patt, not NASM.


"I have trouble with your point regarding duplicate aircraft in
the collection. While NASM may well have a single example
of each bird Wright-Patt certainly has duplicates. I wouldn't
want to put a number on their B-17s, B-29s, or P51s but I bet
it's up there. I have seen them on loan around the country
at other museums much as NMNA has birds at Battleship Park,
Patriots Point, the Intrepid, and Lex, the Hornet, and so on. I
just don't see your logic here. "

Blue skies,
Owen

Guys

I have had several friends check this 'P-40C'..and , as they bluntly put it , it is a poor replica with very few 'original' parts.

Dave

Rob,

Let me focus for a moment on the issue of one
institution having more than one example of a
particular aircraft.

Rob, I think to you the issue is why should
NMNA have more than one of each bird. My
question is why is it acceptable for another
museum such as USAFM to have duplicates
but not NMNA? I don't understand why a trade
for C-54s being involved changes anything.
The point is, to me, the institution owns the
birds and can do what they want with them.
This could be restored and on loan to another
museum, possible trade material, or keep them
in storage until they decide. To me whether
they acquired the planes through a trade for
C-54s or salvaged them from Lake Michigan is
irrelevant.

I don't understand how you draw the distinction.

For example I collect USN wings. Why should it
matter to anyone if I have 10 wings or 100 wings?
I'm sure each museum we've discussed has hundreds
of wings, many of them just alike. Wht would that
be a problem?

Blue skies,
Owen

Why should the Navy have first pick? The Navy can always wait for an entrepeneur to recover something and then trade them out of it with another airplane that our tax dollars also paid for. It would be obsolete to the Navy, yet have trading value. Otherwise we end up with airplanes sitting at the bottom of every ocean waiting for the Navy to recover one.

What constitutes one example? Is an SBD-3 different from an SBD-5? Is an FM-2 Different from an F4F? And who gets to decide- the Navy?

Private initiative is responsible for recovering and saving the most aircraft for future generations. After all, the private sector is who determines the market value. All the Navy has done is put a number of recoveries in limbo and allowed them to deteriorate, making them less valuable, less original, and more expensive to restore. A waste of resources if I ever heard of it!

As far as war graves are concerned, I would think that the private sector should set up guidelines and police themselves. Something like the "Organization For Warbird Recoveries." There will always be those that don't follow the policy, but the present system certainly hasn't stopped abuses. Remember the WW1 artifact plunders going on recently in France? I'm sure there are other equally as atrocious activities elsewhere that we still don't know about . This type of plundering has been going on since the days of the pyramids after all. How can any government stop it? They can only prosecute after the fact. Maybe that is a deterrent, but if so it hasn't worked very well to date.

This is just my opinion of course. Looking forward to the opinions of others.

Rob,

I'm glad we're able to agree that an institution should be able
to do as it pleases with its' own artifacts. Personally I think
the navy has been pretty generous placing duplicate aircraft
at other locations around the country. I live near Battleship
Park outside Mobile, AL and, were it not for NMNA, the air-
craft on display there would be few in number. I hasten to
add the the UASF has also geen generous to the park.

Blue skies,
Owen

Rob,

Something occurred to me about one of your points
in an earlier posting on this thread. I remember you
were not happy with the condition of NMNA's P5M.

There is a way to remedy that. Not long ago you were
trying to mobilize public opinion against the USN policy
on recovery. Well I have a challenge for you.

First a little background.... Over the years several
veterans organizations have worked with the museum
to get "their aircraft" attention. Now I wish the museum
had the funds to restore overy single aircraft to the
condition of 2106 or the SB2U but it just ain't so. You
get the organization of former P5M drivers (assuming
there is one) to gather some dollars, contact the museum
about dedication of those funds to the project and it can
happen. The PBY guys provided the funds to do the
cutaway PBY, the Demon Drivers got together the money
for their Demon to be refurbished and put on display.
Right now the Bucaneer is receiving a lot of attention
funded by some folks from the Brewster family. There
have been other examples but these come to mind in
recent years. Literally you can make it happen. Consider
it.... You might find those guys in Pensacola don't all
have horns....

Blue skies,
Owen

Hi Rob,

Actually I remember two Corsairs on display; one in
simulated flight and one on the flight deck. And as
a WWII USN aviation buff, yes I love it!

Certainly if they sold their Lake Birds they could raise
a lot of money to use for restoration. But we've dis-
cussed this issue before. The museum owns the
aircraft and they can choose what to do with them

I like the fact that Lake Birds are on display loan
at other facilities around the country. Battleship
Park outside Mobile, Patriot's Point, the Lex, the
Intrepid, the Hornet, and other places all have
birds on loan from NMNA; some of them Lake Birds.
Ooops, almost forgot O'Hare Airport in Chicago. If
they sold all those birds they couldn't do that.

I guess it all comes down to choices. I think they
are doing a pretty good job. You think they should
go in another direction.

My challenge to you is accomplish your goal of
getting the P5M attention. If you organize those
guys with the energy and zeal you have shown
here before the P5M is as good as done. Rob,
if you want to work within the system to accomplish
your goal it is attainable. If you just want to bash
the Navy I don't see you making much progress.

Now, that said let me hasten to add that you are
entitled to your opinions. I certainly respect your
right to disagree with me.

Regards,
Owen

Rob,

Hey, that's great news about the P5M. I'm glad to hear
the ball is already rolling on that one. I'm sure there is
still much to be done so you have your work cut out for
you.

I don't have my BuNos handy but the two you quote
sound familar. The one on deck is done up as Boyington's
#86, and the one in flight has a checkerboard cowl.

I want to go in another direction now. Much has been
said about putting more of the Lake Birds in private
hands. I must say that I like to watch them fly as much
as anyone. But now just consider this..... The ONLY
birdcage Corsair flying is now in New Zealand (the last
I heard). There are not a lot of Americans that will see
that bird. The ONLY flying P-40B/C was headed to
England to be part of TFC when it was purchased by
Paul Allen. Not a lot of Americans have seen that bird
either. Also I believe Mr. Allen has three Zeroes.
I understand Mr. Allen will soon open at least a part
of his collection to the public which is wonderful. I
know one day I surely want to see it.


Now I am a believer that if a man had the money to
buy a car, an airplane, or a piece of property it's his
to do with as he wishes. Now one always hopes the
buyer "would do the right thing" but it doesn't always
happen. If the Lake Birds are sold then they might go
overseas, they might be locked in a hanger away from
the public eye, or worse, they might be restored to flying
condition and destroyed by a guy with more money than
ability not to mention sense. (I do not want to start a
debate about "to fly 'em" or "not to fly 'em.) We all know
this has happened on occasion.

As long as NMNA retains control of those aircraft the
above scenarios are not gonna happen. A few may
get traded as others have but I believe the bulk of them
will wind up on display in the US where future generations
and see and appreciate them. Beyond that NMNA had
almost a million visitors last year. That's a lot of folks.

Next, why have I not heard a cry raised about Paul
Allen having three Zeroes? What about Jack Rousch
with three P-51s? These are just two private owners
with more than one example of a type. In previous
posts we discussed USAFM having multiple P-51s, B-17s,
and B-29s. Again I ask, why is it wrong for NMNA to
have several of the same bird but not for USAFM or
private individuals?

Blue skies,
Owen

Rob,

I am as distressed as anyone over the Brewster Corsair
being eaten up by the Zero (sp?) muscles on the bottom of
Lake Michigan.

I can't speak to the specifics of the Corsair when it was
Harry Doan's. Was that one of the birds tied up in his
estate?

Also, I have no knowledge of the A&T contract. I know
those guys did a good job to my knowledge. But consider
this......Before the C-130 flap, before all the suits and counter suits, and multiple investigations of possible misconduct those birds were coming up on a regular
basis. As a byproduct of all the legal maneuvering
there is now a byzantine array of rules, regs, and
restrictions that never before existed. Pensacola
can no longer go get them. Everything now must
go through Naval Historical. Now some may argue
that this is a good thing. But I wonder if it is a good
example of "be careful what you wish for". The bottom
line is this....before all the hoopla the birds were coming
up. Since the dust settled from the hoople they aren't.
So, with an open mind, ask yourself are we (as warbird
enthuiasts) better off?

Blue skies,
Owen

Most of the lake birds are still at the bottom of the lake, and will remain there indefinitely until they are corroded to a point of not being worth recovering. Whatever the intent of the Navy's policy, the result will be that these aircraft will never be on display, EVER! I guess that if the Navy can't have them due to financial constraints, they want to make sure that nobody does.



Why do you think that airplane didn't in fact go to the UK? Could there be another in the wings?????



Some of the Zeroes are still under restoration. I'm sure FHC has something in mind for them. The FHC collection is already open to the public...



Once they become private property they have value in the marketplace. They will be recovered, conserved, or restored. Right now in the Navy's stewardship they are being destroyed.

Despite any crashes, there has been an intense net gain in warbirds flying and on static display in private hands.

Their is no incentive in the "public" sector to do any more than the Navy and other public entities are doing now due to funding constraints. The private sector is where all the real activity is. Look at the dozens of restorations coming out of the private sector (mostly flying examples) compared to the handful (of statics) coming from the public sector. The AF Museum has a B-24, but how does that compare to the Collings Foundation B-24 tour? Which is more valuable from a standpoint of promoting the rememberance and celebration of history?



Very few people are willing to travel to see a static display of aircraft compared to those who first experience warbirds at airshows (which essentially come to them), which are dynamic events that attract many "thrillseekers," not just people interested "only" in aircraft.



The quantity is not the issue, at least FHC's Zeroes and Rousch's P-51's aren't dissolving at the bottom of the ocean while they try to keep others from saving them.

The public sector also has different responsibilities than does the private sector. For one, I don't care if Paul Allen squanders all his money, but I do care if the Navy has to pay someone 3 times as much to restore something (MY tax dollars) because they squandered the opportunity to let someone recover one for the Navy to keep one for themselves. The current policy is not only shortsighted, it can't work!

Wow, so many points to address....

I will begin with your last paragraph as it really
grabbed my interest. You refer to the "Navy pay-
ing three times as much to restore something".
Please tell me more about this. Which aircraft
were involved? Who was the restorer? Did you
get to see something with the amounts involved?
I really want to hear more.

Like everyone else I hope one day the rest of
the Lake Birds come up. The point I was trying
to make was that with all the rules, regulations,
and procedures now in place for the USN to get
them it is much MORE difficult than before. This
situation grew out of all the allegations and in-
vestigations that many in the warbird community
support. What I was trying to articulate was that
possibly this is a case of "be careful what you
wish for, you may get it". The ability of Pensacola
to get the planes is gone. It has to go through
NH now and is a lot more complicated. Before
the new rules and regs the birds were coming up
regularly, now they are not.

I don't doubt for a minute that there are more
P-40B/Cs that will emerge, probably from Russia.
However the point I was trying to make was that
the ONLY current flying example almost left this
country and subsequently in a collection that was
not open to the public.

I really can't agree with you that a lot of people
aren't "willing to travel to see a display of static
aircraft". NMNA annually is the number two or
number thtree tourist attraction in Florida. Annual
attendance for the last several years has been
just under a million folks. Now that's not a lot
compared to Disney but I bet it's a lot more than
Fantasy of Flight, BomberTown, and the other
warbird oriented outfits in Fl combined. I have not
seen figures for how many folks tour the Collings
Foundation birds in a year. I would just add that I
go spend a few bucks with them whenever they
are in the area just support their mission. My flights
on both Nine-O-Nine and A Dragon And His Tail are
something I'll never forget. Definitely, flying in a
warbird takes the experience to another level. To
me both approaches are very effective just different.

In some of my exchanges with Rob quantity was an
issue. He felt (I believe) that the USN didn't need
several examples of the same aircraft. (See previous
posts.) I raised the matter of Allen and Rousch having
multiple examples as a comparison. I also included
USAFM as an institution that had numerous examples
of a single type. The point I was making with Rob was
why is it wrong for the navy to have several but OK
for these other folks? And I believe the USN owned
aircraft to which Rob referred were the already recovered
Lake Birds now in storage in Pensacola. Perhaps I
misunderstood. (Jump in here Rob.)

Your turn,
Owen

Hi Rob,
I understand the distinction between the recovery
policy of USAFM and NMNA. From your previous posts
I got the impression that you felt it was unjust for the
NMNA to have several Corsairs, Wildcats, Dauntlesses,
etc. Did I misunderstand?

As I stated before the recovered Lake Birds are NOT
sitting outside. They are secured in a brick building.
For a time they were outside but have been indoors
for several years.

Kermit's Fantasy of Flight is a great place to visit. When
I pass through that part of the state I never miss it. I
don't have figures for it but I can tell you from experience
that a parking place is a lot easier to find there on a
weekend than it is at NMNA.

Please tell me more about the Black Shadow deal.....

Blue skies,
Owen

Hi Rob,
The best I remember the P-40B/C was restored in
GA. not FL. A couple of days ago we had a post in this
thread from an Alan Brooks explaining the the P-40 was
owned by Don Brooks and restored by Tom Wilson. I
do not remember the Zero being gone anywhere for
restoration. To the best of my knowledge it remains
much as it arrived from Quantico. I think you're mistaken
about those two birds going to Black Shadow. I do
remember some SBD wings coming back from there.
I think they were the ones on the bird at Battleship Park.
Do you know of anything else Stafford may have worked
on? Can you give me some sense of the dollars involved;
what was paid versus what it should have been? This
is an area where I am kinda ignorant.

You can disagree with me all you want about the Lake
Birds being stored inside. Just remember I'm a lot
closer to Pensacola than you are and get over there
a lot more often. Tell you what, I'll bet you the cost
of a round trip down here that I'm telling the truth.

The last Lake Bird to be outside was an early TBF. I
only remember ONE and don't remember a Corsair
center section at all. There were some SBD wings
outside longer that the rest of the Lake Birds. The
area where you saw them is being turned into more
parking area so more of those people who won't
travel long distances to see static aircraft can park.

I believe that last TBF got shipped out to another
museum to restore and display. I need to check on
that and get more specific info.

The gondola is still outside. However the nose of
it is in restoration being prepared for museum dis-
play. It will replace the car being reclaimed by NASM
that has been displayed for some years. Also inside
undergoing restoration at this time is the "Ghost Ship".
This car is also believed to be the one that flew some
material out to the Hornet for the Doolittle Raiders.

We will agree to disagree on the quantity of planes
either on hand or on display. I love going to NMNA
and seeing multiple Wildcats, Dauntlesses, Hellcats,
and Corsairs. And as the Lake Birds belong to NMNA
then they can rest in their brick building until the navy
decides to restore, trade, or barter them.

Now tell me more about the matter regarding the Lex,
Raz, and the NH. I didn't really follow you there.

Regards,
Owen

I was recently told by a very reliable source that Lex Cralley was in fact offered a trade a few years ago that included a Lake Michigan Wildcat and possibly some money for the Brewster (I can't remember the money deatils), but he turned it down as inadequate. If true, this implies tacitly that the Navy accepted Cralleys' claim of ownership. It certainly was his choice to make whether to accept the trade based on the value of what he felt he had versus what they offered, but my understanding is the Navy did try and offer up a deal. For whatever it is worth. Gary