Aerial Gunner Aces?
Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:38 pm
How many aerial gunners were deemed as aces? Or were they even deemed as aces? What was the most kills that a single gunner achieved?
Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:17 am
To my knowledge American aerial gunners who scored 5 or more kills were never given the title of "ace" (which I think is a raw deal). Not sure about other countries though.
As for the highest scoring aerial gunner I believe somebody on a previous thread mentioned it was a tail gunner with something like a dozen kills. Anybody out there want to elaborate?
John
As for the highest scoring aerial gunner I believe somebody on a previous thread mentioned it was a tail gunner with something like a dozen kills. Anybody out there want to elaborate?
John
Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:00 am
The big problem was that 20 or 30 gunners may be shooting at the same aircraft at any given time. If one went down, they all claimed it.
Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:32 am
There was a B-17 waist gunner named Ben Warmer that got 7 confirmed on one mission...
More info here...and it's an interesting site. All the things out there about the Belle, and I never knew that Quinlan was 6th on this list.
Some units gave the gunners more recognition, and some of their stories have survived. In 1989, for example, the newsletter of the 99th Bomb Group Historical Society reprinted an old article from Impact Magazine titled "Our Only Enlisted Man to Become an Air Ace." The subject was SSgt. Benjamin Warmer, who joined the 99th as a B-17 waist gunner and flew during the invasion of Italy. The piece credits Sergeant Warmer with shooting down two planes on a mission to Naples and seven more during a strike against German airfields on Sicily.
Three More Candidates
Sergeant Warmer's story also is recounted in a 1986 book, Aerial Gunners: The Unknown Aces of World War II, by Charles Watry and Duane Hall. The book confirms Warmer's nine kills but challenges the claim that he was the only enlisted gunner ace in World War II. It names several others, including three noncommissioned officers who flew with the Army Air Forces.
Aerial Gunners reports that, in the China-Burma-India theater, TSgt. Arthur P. Benko may have downed nine planes and TSgt. George W. Gouldthrite five. Watry and Hall also credit SSgt. John P. Quinlan with five victories in Europe and three in the Pacific. Sergeant Quinlan was the tail gunner of Memphis Belle, the B-17 bomber that became the subject of a wartime documentary and a recent fictionalized movie. Neither Sergeant Quinlan's name nor those of the other three airmen appear on USAF's official list of aces.
More info here...and it's an interesting site. All the things out there about the Belle, and I never knew that Quinlan was 6th on this list.
Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:59 am
FG1D Pilot wrote:The big problem was that 20 or 30 gunners may be shooting at the same aircraft at any given time. If one went down, they all claimed it.
You bring up a good point Doug. With the tight bomber formations and dozens of guns firing at attacking aircraft I'm sure a single kill was claimed by numerous gunners. I remember reading about compiled data on German aircraft loses that was analysed after the war. The number of American kills claimed and the number of German losses didn't even come close to adding up. The numbers were off by like 3 to 1. Some of this could be due to more than one gunner claming a kill but also to the German practice of not listing a plane lost if the pilot managed to bail out and survive.
John
Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:23 pm
3 to 1 is about the right level of overclaiming for fighter kills; for gunners it often turned out to be more like 10 to 1 when German records were examined. It's unlikely that there ever was a 5-victory gunner, unless you're talking about 50 one-tenth fractional kills. Or some gunners in 2-seat bombers that did not fly in mass formations might legitimately claim several victories; there were some gunner aces in WWI also I believe.
The brass was well aware that gunner kills were complete hot air but obviously it was crucial for crew morale so they let the claims stand.
August
The brass was well aware that gunner kills were complete hot air but obviously it was crucial for crew morale so they let the claims stand.
August
Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:22 pm
John Murphy, FE and top turret, 345th BG, 500th BS, was credited with 5 in one mission during the ordeal of (B-25) Tondelayo.
Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:06 am
One pretty sure bet was that the kills by aerial gunners were all killers and not some sitting duck transport on the ground claimed on a strafing run. Brave young men all. I read a story if Flypast a long time ago about a set of dog tags that showed in a shop in England after the war belonging to a young ball turret gunner who was killed on his first mission. Never got a shot off.
Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:02 pm
Tom - if your perspective is that ground kills were 'shooting at sitting ducks', you might re-think the cost (and the challenge of simply staying alive) when strafing Luftwaffe airfields.
The 8th AF Fighter Command lost far more fighters shooting up airfields than to air to air combat. My Father's group, the 355th FG, lost twice as many to 20mm flak as they did air to air.
Interestingly enough the 355th award to loss ratio for air victories was about 8:1 and the award to loss ratio for ground scores was 4.5:1 and the 355th FG did not lose a single ace in air to air combat, but lost 4 to flak.
Regards,
Bill
The 8th AF Fighter Command lost far more fighters shooting up airfields than to air to air combat. My Father's group, the 355th FG, lost twice as many to 20mm flak as they did air to air.
Interestingly enough the 355th award to loss ratio for air victories was about 8:1 and the award to loss ratio for ground scores was 4.5:1 and the 355th FG did not lose a single ace in air to air combat, but lost 4 to flak.
Regards,
Bill
Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:50 pm
In an interiew with a ball turret gunner the gentleman said it was an embarrassment to the crew to have a gunner talking up how many kills he had. The same thought - with 100 B-17s in the air and heaven opnly knows how many gunners shooting at he same plane how would you ever really know? After much asking he finally admitted that the group had credited him with 3 confirmed kills and a probable fourth. He quickly and emphatically said, "none of that matters though - getting home was what mattered".
Tom P.
Tom P.
Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:58 pm
gunners
Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:40 pm
Could gunners hit anything? I give you a story I was told personally by an ex Air Corp T-6 instructor, I did not verify it. Bombers were taking heavy losses in Europe. They took P-63s in the US, added armor, gave the bomber gunners frangible bullets. This guy is #4 of 2 flights of fighters high over a flight of bombers. He's pretty happy, 22 years old, in 400mph fighter. They start the exercise; the first fighter peels off and screams down through the bomber pack, and comes out the bottom, "Mayday" engine failure", and bellies in a field. They figure it is a fluke, the 2nd fighter dives down pulls out below "Mayday, I'm on fire" and bails out. About this time the 22 year old guy thinks "I' m not near as happy as I was awhile ago." Common sense takes over and they call it off. They conclude, they aren't sure about 109s or FWs, but the gunners sure can shoot the hell out of a P-63.