WWII question?
Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:09 am
Three part question here guys:
1. What does the "D" in "D-Day" stand for?
2. There are many aircraft types that have invasion stripes. What is the purpous of the the stripes?
3. Which aircraft REALLY used invasion stripes in action?
The first plane i ever saw with them was Sea Fury N232 owned by Frank Sanders. It was supposed to be a replica of the "Mig Killer" WJ232 flown in Korea by Lt. P. Charmichael. If i remmeber right, Franks Fury was painted incorrectly as the #'s 232 were painted "in" the invasion stripes on the side of the fuse. I was told by someone more "in the know" than i, that, the stripes on the Sea Fury and the Spitfire that we see today were not authentic and that they should be on the bottom surfaces of the aircraft only.
Thanks in advance
Anthony
1. What does the "D" in "D-Day" stand for?
2. There are many aircraft types that have invasion stripes. What is the purpous of the the stripes?
3. Which aircraft REALLY used invasion stripes in action?
The first plane i ever saw with them was Sea Fury N232 owned by Frank Sanders. It was supposed to be a replica of the "Mig Killer" WJ232 flown in Korea by Lt. P. Charmichael. If i remmeber right, Franks Fury was painted incorrectly as the #'s 232 were painted "in" the invasion stripes on the side of the fuse. I was told by someone more "in the know" than i, that, the stripes on the Sea Fury and the Spitfire that we see today were not authentic and that they should be on the bottom surfaces of the aircraft only.
Thanks in advance
Anthony
Re: WWII question?
Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:19 am
Sierra Fox wrote:Three part question here guys:
1. What does the "D" in "D-Day" stand for?
2. There are many aircraft types that have invasion stripes. What is the purpous of the the stripes?
3. Which aircraft REALLY used invasion stripes in action?
Thanks in advance
Anthony
The quick answers (since i know someone will come along later and give better answers):
1. I don't know for sure that it meant anything.
2. Invasion stripes were meant for identification purposes. with the masses of aircraft over the invasion beaches, those on the ground (and in ships for that matter) needed a quick and dirty way to make sure that the aircraft overhead were allied A/C. Hence the black and white stripes. Most of the A/C that were painted were done in a haphazard manner, often being painted with a mop, roller, or the biggest brush they had. The nice clean stripes you see today on restored aircraft were seldom seen during the war.
3. My understanding is that anything allied flying over the beach had stripes.
I'm assuming someone will come along and give better answers for at least #1 and #3.
Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:23 am
Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:12 am
From what I remember:
"D" Day had no meaning. It was just a code.
As has it been already stated, the stripes had identification purposes. Basically, it was: Anything that doesn't have stripes on it, is the enemy.
Two German aircraft though, made an attack over the beachhead [Josef "Pips" Priller (Sp?) is one of the names I remember] and made it out basically, unharmed.
Stipes were also used during operation Market-Garden.
The Sea Fury you mention, probably has stripes related to the attack on Egypt in the 1950s, by Israel, France and the UK.
Probably -I do not know- between different operations; due to availability of paint; time constraints, etc., there were variations on the stripes in a given operation, although they all tended to be pretty much similar.
I defer to the experts on this interesting subject.
Saludos,
Tulio
"D" Day had no meaning. It was just a code.
As has it been already stated, the stripes had identification purposes. Basically, it was: Anything that doesn't have stripes on it, is the enemy.
Two German aircraft though, made an attack over the beachhead [Josef "Pips" Priller (Sp?) is one of the names I remember] and made it out basically, unharmed.
Stipes were also used during operation Market-Garden.
The Sea Fury you mention, probably has stripes related to the attack on Egypt in the 1950s, by Israel, France and the UK.
Probably -I do not know- between different operations; due to availability of paint; time constraints, etc., there were variations on the stripes in a given operation, although they all tended to be pretty much similar.
I defer to the experts on this interesting subject.
Saludos,
Tulio
Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:17 am
Most of the answers can be found on this thread:
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... d4ccf1ade1
As stated there, D-day stripes initially were painted all the way around both wings and fuselage, but a few weeks after the invastion were stripped or overpainted on top so that they only showed from below. Therefore, as to the Spitfire, the all-around stripes were probably accurate for how the plane appeared on and just after D-day. The underside stripes were left on the airplanes more or less permanently, so there are a lot more wartime photos showing underside-only stripes than there are showing them all the way around, and this may have led to your friend's confusion.
The recognition stripes on the Sea Fury are not D-day stripes but a completely different type of recognition stripe applied to British aircraft in the Korean War and, although having the same w/b/w/b/w pattern, they were narrower (each stripe 12 in wide rather than 18 ), differently placed, and always went all the way around the wing and fuselage. I'm not even going to try to excuse your friend's confusion on that subject.
August
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... d4ccf1ade1
As stated there, D-day stripes initially were painted all the way around both wings and fuselage, but a few weeks after the invastion were stripped or overpainted on top so that they only showed from below. Therefore, as to the Spitfire, the all-around stripes were probably accurate for how the plane appeared on and just after D-day. The underside stripes were left on the airplanes more or less permanently, so there are a lot more wartime photos showing underside-only stripes than there are showing them all the way around, and this may have led to your friend's confusion.
The recognition stripes on the Sea Fury are not D-day stripes but a completely different type of recognition stripe applied to British aircraft in the Korean War and, although having the same w/b/w/b/w pattern, they were narrower (each stripe 12 in wide rather than 18 ), differently placed, and always went all the way around the wing and fuselage. I'm not even going to try to excuse your friend's confusion on that subject.
August
Last edited by k5083 on Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:19 am
As Chico said, the stripes were applied to tactical aircraft only (anything flying low enough for nervous AA gunners to shoot at.) This included fighters, light and medium bombers, transports, gliders, recon, and laison aircraft. Strategic aircraft were exempt..so you never see invasion stripes on four-engine bombers (with the exception of some Halifaxes and Stirlings used as glider tugs.)
The standard invasion stripes were white/black/white/black/white (I once got the colors reversed on a model..much to my embarassment!) I'm sure there was a tech order specifying exact dimensions, but as Chico said, they were usually slopped on with whatever was handy..especially since they weren't to be applied until just before the invasion. In some cases (like many gliders, which were considered disposable) only the white stripes were painted.
All those neat, crisp invasion stripes you see on warbirds are wrong, except for some fighters, which tended to be a bit more well cared-for. The only museum I've seen get it right is the National Museum of the United States Air Force in Dayton. All their invasion stripes are crooked and sloppy. They've even got a mannequin with a bucket and a big, mangy brush painting the stripes on the Mosquito.
I'd have to check my references, but I believe the stripes were ordered removed from the upper surfaces in August of '44, and many aircraft had them completely removed or painted over by autumn, since by then the Allies had effectively acheived air superiority.
Interestingly, some Typhoons had black and white stripes painted under the wings as an ID feature well before D-Day..these actually had nothing to do with actual invasion stripes, and were different dimensions.
Cheers!
Steve
The standard invasion stripes were white/black/white/black/white (I once got the colors reversed on a model..much to my embarassment!) I'm sure there was a tech order specifying exact dimensions, but as Chico said, they were usually slopped on with whatever was handy..especially since they weren't to be applied until just before the invasion. In some cases (like many gliders, which were considered disposable) only the white stripes were painted.
All those neat, crisp invasion stripes you see on warbirds are wrong, except for some fighters, which tended to be a bit more well cared-for. The only museum I've seen get it right is the National Museum of the United States Air Force in Dayton. All their invasion stripes are crooked and sloppy. They've even got a mannequin with a bucket and a big, mangy brush painting the stripes on the Mosquito.
I'd have to check my references, but I believe the stripes were ordered removed from the upper surfaces in August of '44, and many aircraft had them completely removed or painted over by autumn, since by then the Allies had effectively acheived air superiority.
Interestingly, some Typhoons had black and white stripes painted under the wings as an ID feature well before D-Day..these actually had nothing to do with actual invasion stripes, and were different dimensions.
Cheers!
Steve
Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:36 am
It's my understanding that P-38s were used, extensively, during the invasion because of their distinctive (ie. easily recognizable) shape. Although they still had the stripes.
Mudge the easily recognizable
Mudge the easily recognizable
Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:20 pm
I thought the "D" in D-Day stood for "Departure" Date?
As for the invasion stripes I remember reading that this was done to avoid some of the disasterous friendly fire incidents which occurred during the invasion of Sicily where many allied aircraft and gliders were shot down by allied anti-aircraft crews as they approached the cost of Sicily.
John
As for the invasion stripes I remember reading that this was done to avoid some of the disasterous friendly fire incidents which occurred during the invasion of Sicily where many allied aircraft and gliders were shot down by allied anti-aircraft crews as they approached the cost of Sicily.
John
Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:20 pm
Great information here WIX's! Thanks again
Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:26 pm
Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:32 pm
In typical miltary fashion D = Day, in this case landing or invasion day; hence D +1 or D -2, etc.
Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:58 pm
I can speak for the 355th FG on Invasion Stripes.
First they were put on hastily, some masked properly some late sfternoon of June 5. They were ready on all Mustangs by 0200, when the first mission prep bagan on 6 June.
Second, there was an official scheme for width and location. I'd have to research but I think 15" for fuselage and 12" for wings (top and Bottom)
On or about July 9, 8th AF HQ issued order for top stipes on fuselage to be removed.
In early September the stripes were removed from the top of the wings (only)
In October the bottom stripes were removed from the wings and the 355th put the red, blue and Yellow Cowl Bands, and rudder colors to identify the 354FS, 357FS and 358FS respectively - keeping the solid white spinner for 355FG Identification. The bottom Fuselage stripes remained until late November/early December
One black band for each wing and horizontal stabilizer was retained until March timeframe when everthing went except squadron colors on cowl and Rudder.
Regards,
Bill
First they were put on hastily, some masked properly some late sfternoon of June 5. They were ready on all Mustangs by 0200, when the first mission prep bagan on 6 June.
Second, there was an official scheme for width and location. I'd have to research but I think 15" for fuselage and 12" for wings (top and Bottom)
On or about July 9, 8th AF HQ issued order for top stipes on fuselage to be removed.
In early September the stripes were removed from the top of the wings (only)
In October the bottom stripes were removed from the wings and the 355th put the red, blue and Yellow Cowl Bands, and rudder colors to identify the 354FS, 357FS and 358FS respectively - keeping the solid white spinner for 355FG Identification. The bottom Fuselage stripes remained until late November/early December
One black band for each wing and horizontal stabilizer was retained until March timeframe when everthing went except squadron colors on cowl and Rudder.
Regards,
Bill
Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:54 pm
The "D" stood for Disembarkation.
Mudge is right about the P-38, no one had one except the U.S. and there was nothing else in the sky that looked anything like it...If remember my history right, the P-38 was the only fighter to fly missions over the actual envasion beaches that fateful day, the rest flew missions inland.
Mudge is right about the P-38, no one had one except the U.S. and there was nothing else in the sky that looked anything like it...If remember my history right, the P-38 was the only fighter to fly missions over the actual envasion beaches that fateful day, the rest flew missions inland.
Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:58 pm
The official directive was for the stripes to be 18 inches on both wings and fuselage on all fighter types (except 20 inches on P-47 wings); 24 inches on wings and 20 inches on fuselages of multi-engine bombers and transports. On the fuselage of P-51s they were supposed to be centered around the national insignia, which was painted in a standard location at the factory, with the result that the rearmost stripe ended 10 inches behind the joint between the fuselage and tail section. On the wings, the outer edge of the outboard stripe at the trailing edge was to be 8 inches inboard of the outboard end of the flap. In practice there was a lot of variation in both width and position. Sometimes they were painted sloppily and sometimes quite neatly; a warbird with nice straight D-day stripes is not necessarily inaccurate.
August
August
Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:17 pm
From the reference listed above,
"Contrary to popular belief, the "D" does not stand for any specific word-the most popular being disembark.
Bill.
"Contrary to popular belief, the "D" does not stand for any specific word-the most popular being disembark.
Bill.