Help the Red Tail Project
Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:12 pm
Dave and Bryan,
I love your idea for a WIX fund drive to help with the Red Tail. In past I’ve asked for funding help from site members and to my knowledge little was garnered. I quickly came to the conclusion it was my fault for any number of reasons. Chief among them was not giving you all (or as Gary would say, y’all) a goal to purchase an object or assembly you can rally around and hang your name on. There is a definite sense of pride and ownership in that. Cool! Of course we all want to see these old relics fly but this thread proves that you folks want to have a vested interest in helping to keep these relics airborne. There is a big difference between keeping them flying and watching them fly at air shows and I for one applaud you for realizing that difference!!!!
Before I bare my laundry list to y’all (Gary now ya got me doing that!), let me give you a quick update on where we are today, what is holding us up in particular areas, and what is next on the list for the near future.
Without getting to wordy (I know, tough for me not to do) with the exception of the windscreen/canopy, aft duct, doghouse, wrapper and scoop, the fuselage structure is done. From the exterior the project does not appear to have changed much over the last year but we have been making good progress installing the electrical and hydraulic systems. Last week I sent the radios out for IRAN. Three weeks ago I finally finished running the hyd lines through the radiator bay and we managed to get the radiator hung before my weekend was over. We also hung the rudder and elevators to begin their final fitting before they get sent out for fabric (Finally some visual changes!). Although more has gone on that’s a pretty good synopsis of where we are at right now. If I was more web savvy like Gary, ya’ll would be able to see pictures of our work. I guess for now you can always check some of them out at our web site WWW.redtail.org By the way we are set with a fresh engine and a propeller.
Now that the radiator is in place we plan on beginning reconstructing the aft duct and doghouse. Most all of the structural parts we need Gerry makes for the D model and has them in stock so it should be a relatively straight forward fit and rivet job. One parts he does no make yet is the oil cooler door. The last quote we were given was $1300 for a used one “That may need some minor repair”. Pretty ridiculous but when ya toss the coin, buy it or make one, it comes out pretty close to even. Making one absorbs time that could be spent in other more critical areas and the door will still end up costing some money make. A WIX Aft Duct…A WIX Oil Cooler Door?
When we head to the shop in a couple weeks one of the priorities is to get the engine mount taken apart and sent to Odegaard’s shop for repair. It’s not hurt real bad but will need a few new pieces…A WIX Engine Mount?
Our biggest stumbling block right now is the wing. We are estimating should cost somewhere between $150k and $200k and before we can built it we need to create the tooling to form the ribs. $200k is a tall order for the WIX crew but ya eat an elephant teaspoon at a time. Most of us work someplace right? Most companies are very good about contributing to charitable organizations. What we cannot always afford to give, we may be able to find through other avenues (Legally please!) Maybe some of the WIX family members who are better off would consider becoming underwriting sponsors for the wing rebuild either on their own or by polling people in their circles. The rest of us could do our best to support them…the WIX Wing has a nice ring, huh?
Here is a partial list of some of the major things we need. I’ll get pricing on as much of it as I can and we can bat around what we want to take on as a group. Keep in mind the project will accept parts in lieu of cash donations:
Wing extensions: (1) $4500
Flaps (2) $9200 each
Ailerons (1.5) $7500 each
Stress Doors (2) $8700 each
Clam doors (2) ~$6000 each (tooling needs to be made)
Spade doors (1 LH) (None known to exist. unknown price, tooling needs to be made)
Front gun door (1 LH) Unknown
Rear gun door (1 LH) Unknown
Ammo door (1 LH) Unknown
Air scoop/fairing (1) ~$7500 (tooling for fairing needs to be made)
Coolant and oil tubes (1 set) $4500
Parts to complete canopy/windscreen ~$5000
Instrument overhaul. Unknown
Wing fairings Unknown
Prop spinner and backing plate (1ea.) $12,000
Induction trunk (all 3 sections) $30,500
Cowlings Unknown
Exhaust shrouds (1 set RH side) Unknown
Alternator Unknown
Fuel pump Unknown
Hyd pump Unknown
Vacuum pump Unknown
Prop Governor Unknown
Tach Generator Unknown
Radio IRAN Estimated $600
Fabric for elevators and ailerons estimated $3000 to $5000.
In short there is no end to what we need. It would be really cool if the WIX community would decide sponsor part of the project. If any of you have an interest in privately sponsoring one or more of the listed items please PM me to discuss. The Red Tail Project can offer you in return for your contribution a CAF DVD, a rivet certificate signed by an original Tuskegee Airmen, a coupon sized piece of skin from the rebuild, (For larger donors prop blades are available) and the great feeling that comes with knowing you made a difference through your efforts. The Red Tail Project is part of the CAF and your contributions are completely tax deductible. IRS is paperwork available for larger contributions.
In the end we really need your help to get this airplane back in the air so we can, as a society, continue paying honor to the Tuskegee Airmen. We also need it to encourage young kids to get involved in aviation. It’s not out of reach for them and they need to know that!!! Without their interest we may as well start closing down feeder air fields now. I can set up the payment account and logistics when we decide what to move on…Are you WIXer’s on board with this?
Thanks for the interest in the project,
John Beyl
CC CAF P-51C
I love your idea for a WIX fund drive to help with the Red Tail. In past I’ve asked for funding help from site members and to my knowledge little was garnered. I quickly came to the conclusion it was my fault for any number of reasons. Chief among them was not giving you all (or as Gary would say, y’all) a goal to purchase an object or assembly you can rally around and hang your name on. There is a definite sense of pride and ownership in that. Cool! Of course we all want to see these old relics fly but this thread proves that you folks want to have a vested interest in helping to keep these relics airborne. There is a big difference between keeping them flying and watching them fly at air shows and I for one applaud you for realizing that difference!!!!
Before I bare my laundry list to y’all (Gary now ya got me doing that!), let me give you a quick update on where we are today, what is holding us up in particular areas, and what is next on the list for the near future.
Without getting to wordy (I know, tough for me not to do) with the exception of the windscreen/canopy, aft duct, doghouse, wrapper and scoop, the fuselage structure is done. From the exterior the project does not appear to have changed much over the last year but we have been making good progress installing the electrical and hydraulic systems. Last week I sent the radios out for IRAN. Three weeks ago I finally finished running the hyd lines through the radiator bay and we managed to get the radiator hung before my weekend was over. We also hung the rudder and elevators to begin their final fitting before they get sent out for fabric (Finally some visual changes!). Although more has gone on that’s a pretty good synopsis of where we are at right now. If I was more web savvy like Gary, ya’ll would be able to see pictures of our work. I guess for now you can always check some of them out at our web site WWW.redtail.org By the way we are set with a fresh engine and a propeller.
Now that the radiator is in place we plan on beginning reconstructing the aft duct and doghouse. Most all of the structural parts we need Gerry makes for the D model and has them in stock so it should be a relatively straight forward fit and rivet job. One parts he does no make yet is the oil cooler door. The last quote we were given was $1300 for a used one “That may need some minor repair”. Pretty ridiculous but when ya toss the coin, buy it or make one, it comes out pretty close to even. Making one absorbs time that could be spent in other more critical areas and the door will still end up costing some money make. A WIX Aft Duct…A WIX Oil Cooler Door?
When we head to the shop in a couple weeks one of the priorities is to get the engine mount taken apart and sent to Odegaard’s shop for repair. It’s not hurt real bad but will need a few new pieces…A WIX Engine Mount?
Our biggest stumbling block right now is the wing. We are estimating should cost somewhere between $150k and $200k and before we can built it we need to create the tooling to form the ribs. $200k is a tall order for the WIX crew but ya eat an elephant teaspoon at a time. Most of us work someplace right? Most companies are very good about contributing to charitable organizations. What we cannot always afford to give, we may be able to find through other avenues (Legally please!) Maybe some of the WIX family members who are better off would consider becoming underwriting sponsors for the wing rebuild either on their own or by polling people in their circles. The rest of us could do our best to support them…the WIX Wing has a nice ring, huh?
Here is a partial list of some of the major things we need. I’ll get pricing on as much of it as I can and we can bat around what we want to take on as a group. Keep in mind the project will accept parts in lieu of cash donations:
Wing extensions: (1) $4500
Flaps (2) $9200 each
Ailerons (1.5) $7500 each
Stress Doors (2) $8700 each
Clam doors (2) ~$6000 each (tooling needs to be made)
Spade doors (1 LH) (None known to exist. unknown price, tooling needs to be made)
Front gun door (1 LH) Unknown
Rear gun door (1 LH) Unknown
Ammo door (1 LH) Unknown
Air scoop/fairing (1) ~$7500 (tooling for fairing needs to be made)
Coolant and oil tubes (1 set) $4500
Parts to complete canopy/windscreen ~$5000
Instrument overhaul. Unknown
Wing fairings Unknown
Prop spinner and backing plate (1ea.) $12,000
Induction trunk (all 3 sections) $30,500
Cowlings Unknown
Exhaust shrouds (1 set RH side) Unknown
Alternator Unknown
Fuel pump Unknown
Hyd pump Unknown
Vacuum pump Unknown
Prop Governor Unknown
Tach Generator Unknown
Radio IRAN Estimated $600
Fabric for elevators and ailerons estimated $3000 to $5000.
In short there is no end to what we need. It would be really cool if the WIX community would decide sponsor part of the project. If any of you have an interest in privately sponsoring one or more of the listed items please PM me to discuss. The Red Tail Project can offer you in return for your contribution a CAF DVD, a rivet certificate signed by an original Tuskegee Airmen, a coupon sized piece of skin from the rebuild, (For larger donors prop blades are available) and the great feeling that comes with knowing you made a difference through your efforts. The Red Tail Project is part of the CAF and your contributions are completely tax deductible. IRS is paperwork available for larger contributions.
In the end we really need your help to get this airplane back in the air so we can, as a society, continue paying honor to the Tuskegee Airmen. We also need it to encourage young kids to get involved in aviation. It’s not out of reach for them and they need to know that!!! Without their interest we may as well start closing down feeder air fields now. I can set up the payment account and logistics when we decide what to move on…Are you WIXer’s on board with this?
Thanks for the interest in the project,
John Beyl
CC CAF P-51C
Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:29 am
I'll pitch in John. The first thing I can do is continue to see what we have here in Midland as far as some of the parts you have on your list are concerned. The second thing I can do is throw a little money in the kitty. Can't do much, but will try to help some. PM me with info to send it to and we'll get something started.
Gary
Gary
Re: Help the Red Tail Project
Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:05 am
John Beyl wrote:In the end we really need your help to get this airplane back in the air so we can, as a society, continue paying honor to the Tuskegee Airmen. We also need it to encourage young kids to get involved in aviation.
John,
I'll "pony up" $100 for whatever WIX part(s) you wish for the project. Should I just go to the site and make the donation, or do you want to PM me with other arrangements?
As an aside, while I can't wait to see the Mustang back in the air, Doug R. sold me on the education mission a few years back while sitting in an establishment at CAK. While the plane is neat, it really is the story that needs to be told and the plane is just a tool to teach the story. That conversation really made me reevaluate how I view warbirds.
Come on guys...I challenge WIXers to contribute a little monetary support to get the Red Tail back in the air, so that it can be a used to educate and inspire the next generation of aviation and warbird fans!
Jim Bates
Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:36 am
Here are some shots from the work weekend I attended back in October.
If I go next weekend, I'll grab some knew shots too.
John feel free to shot me any pictures you would like to see posted.
If I go next weekend, I'll grab some knew shots too.
John feel free to shot me any pictures you would like to see posted.
Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:36 pm
In my humble opinion I think the formula that has worked to so well for AM927 has been it continous coverage here on WIX
People have been checking the progress of her retrofitting on a daily basis joined with Gary's candid dialoge. This has brought much needed publicity and attention to his efforts as well as made folks near and far feel apart of the restoration.
Perhaps this too could work for Red Tail. If we start a thread here on WIX where her progress is covered on a daily basis then maybe the AM927 snowball effect will be duplicated.
In the past most restorations progress's were documented on the internet "at best" on a monthly basis. Now hopefully things will change and provide a much needed boost in the warbird community and more specifically the CAF (the people's air force). Obiviously with the LIL gun fund it shows that it's not that people aren't willing to donate money. I think that for most who can donate it's just that they're not thinking about it and WIX has thrown it in the people's face like a big bilboard.
I want to see her back in the sky as soon as possible.
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
People have been checking the progress of her retrofitting on a daily basis joined with Gary's candid dialoge. This has brought much needed publicity and attention to his efforts as well as made folks near and far feel apart of the restoration.
Perhaps this too could work for Red Tail. If we start a thread here on WIX where her progress is covered on a daily basis then maybe the AM927 snowball effect will be duplicated.
In the past most restorations progress's were documented on the internet "at best" on a monthly basis. Now hopefully things will change and provide a much needed boost in the warbird community and more specifically the CAF (the people's air force). Obiviously with the LIL gun fund it shows that it's not that people aren't willing to donate money. I think that for most who can donate it's just that they're not thinking about it and WIX has thrown it in the people's face like a big bilboard.
I want to see her back in the sky as soon as possible.
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Re: Help the Red Tail Project
Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:14 pm
AirJimL2 wrote:John Beyl wrote:In the end we really need your help to get this airplane back in the air so we can, as a society, continue paying honor to the Tuskegee Airmen. We also need it to encourage young kids to get involved in aviation.
John,
I'll "pony up" $100 for whatever WIX part(s) you wish for the project. Should I just go to the site and make the donation, or do you want to PM me with other arrangements?
As an aside, while I can't wait to see the Mustang back in the air, Doug R. sold me on the education mission a few years back while sitting in an establishment at CAK. While the plane is neat, it really is the story that needs to be told and the plane is just a tool to teach the story. That conversation really made me reevaluate how I view warbirds.
Come on guys...I challenge WIXers to contribute a little monetary support to get the Red Tail back in the air, so that it can be a used to educate and inspire the next generation of aviation and warbird fans!
Jim Bates
Hi Jim,
Thanks for responding! Since there wasn't enough interest to merit setting up a paypal account, the best way for you to contribute to the project is to go to our website www.redtail.org and do a rivet certificate for the amount you would like donate. They are pretty cool and are signed by a Tuskegee Airman. If you want a coupon of skin from the rebuild PM me your mailing address and I'll send you a piece.
John
Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:49 pm
Shay wrote:In my humble opinion I think the formula that has worked to so well for AM927 has been it continous coverage here on WIX
People have been checking the progress of her retrofitting on a daily basis joined with Gary's candid dialoge. This has brought much needed publicity and attention to his efforts as well as made folks near and far feel apart of the restoration.
Perhaps this too could work for Red Tail. If we start a thread here on WIX where her progress is covered on a daily basis then maybe the AM927 snowball effect will be duplicated.
In the past most restorations progress's were documented on the internet "at best" on a monthly basis. Now hopefully things will change and provide a much needed boost in the warbird community and more specifically the CAF (the people's air force). Obiviously with the LIL gun fund it shows that it's not that people aren't willing to donate money. I think that for most who can donate it's just that they're not thinking about it and WIX has thrown it in the people's face like a big bilboard.
I want to see her back in the sky as soon as possible.
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Shay,
Your opinion counts…and like you, I happen to believe it’s correct. Gary has suggested the same thing to me. The problem I have with the Red Tail rebuild is maintaining momentum with the thread. Because of logistics I’m not fortunate enough to be able to head to the shop every day and pound on the airplane like Gary does. Wahpeton, ND is about a 6.5 hour round trip from where my crew and I live so a weekend trip about once every three weeks is about all we can manage right now. We do get a lot done on our trips to the shop however, because funding is an issue with the project right now, between those trips little if no progress is made at all. At this point 99% of the work is being done by skilled volunteers.
With that said, at the rate threads are created and exhausted on the board, I’m not sure how to keep a Red Tail Rebuild thread somewhat front and center like the AM927 thread. To me that thread is holding its interest because it’s technical in nature and shows daily/weekly progress. I’ve got nothing to lose and you all have everything to gain if you want to tune in….I’ll give it a shot and see what happens. Look for a thread to start sometime around the 15th of the month, after we return from out next trip. Now all I need to do is figure out how to host and post pictures! IF you have more questions between now and then feel free to post them!!!
Thanks for the interest in the project,
John
Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:54 pm
"In my humble opinion I think the formula that has worked to so well for AM927 has been it continous coverage here on WIX
People have been checking the progress of her retrofitting on a daily basis joined with Gary's candid dialoge. This has brought much needed publicity and attention to his efforts as well as made folks near and far feel apart of the restoration.
Perhaps this too could work for Red Tail. If we start a thread here on WIX where her progress is covered on a daily basis then maybe the AM927 snowball effect will be duplicated.
In the past most restorations progress's were documented on the internet "at best" on a monthly basis. Now hopefully things will change and provide a much needed boost in the warbird community and more specifically the CAF (the people's air force). Obiviously with the LIL gun fund it shows that it's not that people aren't willing to donate money. I think that for most who can donate it's just that they're not thinking about it and WIX has thrown it in the people's face like a big bilboard. "
I agree with Shay! Have you guys tried to obtain any funds from Oprah? No I 'm not kidding..
People have been checking the progress of her retrofitting on a daily basis joined with Gary's candid dialoge. This has brought much needed publicity and attention to his efforts as well as made folks near and far feel apart of the restoration.
Perhaps this too could work for Red Tail. If we start a thread here on WIX where her progress is covered on a daily basis then maybe the AM927 snowball effect will be duplicated.
In the past most restorations progress's were documented on the internet "at best" on a monthly basis. Now hopefully things will change and provide a much needed boost in the warbird community and more specifically the CAF (the people's air force). Obiviously with the LIL gun fund it shows that it's not that people aren't willing to donate money. I think that for most who can donate it's just that they're not thinking about it and WIX has thrown it in the people's face like a big bilboard. "
I agree with Shay! Have you guys tried to obtain any funds from Oprah? No I 'm not kidding..
Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:01 pm
Just remember that everybody loves the timeless P-51 Mustang.
You couldn't ask for a better candidate to grab someone's attention. It's not like you're trying to rally support to help restore a Sherpa (God awful streril offspring of C-123 and a lunch box).
That's the spirit.
At whatever rate is manageable for updates is fine. You do what you can. We'll make due and fill in the in-between time with useful conversation about the specifics of the P-51C and so on.
Regardless of the details WIX can only help by making the restoration of Red Tail High-Visibility.
This can work
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
You couldn't ask for a better candidate to grab someone's attention. It's not like you're trying to rally support to help restore a Sherpa (God awful streril offspring of C-123 and a lunch box).
John Beyl wrote: I’ve got nothing to lose and you all have everything to gain if you want to tune in.
That's the spirit.
At whatever rate is manageable for updates is fine. You do what you can. We'll make due and fill in the in-between time with useful conversation about the specifics of the P-51C and so on.
Regardless of the details WIX can only help by making the restoration of Red Tail High-Visibility.
This can work
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Red Tail P-51C
Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:34 pm
John - This is probably one of the most if not THE most important Mustang restoration projects out there right now. I saw this plane at Dayton in July 2003, and its later loss was a real tragedy in human and historic aviation terms.
You and your group are to be commended on this most worthy project.
I will try to send some support when I can.
I know it would be terrific to have this beautiful and important plane at The Gathering of Mustangs in late September of this year, but I realize that the scope and complexity of this project may not allow that. If it cannot be in the air by then, hopefully a major display/booth of some kind will be set up to explain the project and solicit donations.
Keep up the great work. It will be a "red" letter day in warbird restoration history when this airplane is ready to take to the sky once more.
Jim C.
You and your group are to be commended on this most worthy project.
I will try to send some support when I can.
I know it would be terrific to have this beautiful and important plane at The Gathering of Mustangs in late September of this year, but I realize that the scope and complexity of this project may not allow that. If it cannot be in the air by then, hopefully a major display/booth of some kind will be set up to explain the project and solicit donations.
Keep up the great work. It will be a "red" letter day in warbird restoration history when this airplane is ready to take to the sky once more.
Jim C.
Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:44 pm
Broken-Wrench wrote: Have you guys tried to obtain any funds from Oprah? No I 'm not kidding..
BW,
I know you not kidding! Oprah would be a wonderful project spokeswoman with the resources to make the project happen with far grander (If that’s a word) results than we dare dream of today. The problem is getting her attention. I believe when a person gets to the level she has reached, there are so many firewalls built between them and the public, they become somewhat insulated by “Their People”. We’ve tried to reach her at HARPO and as far as I know, have made no significant inroads. I believe if we could ever get to her, the project is something she would likely be interested in talking to us about.
John
Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:02 pm
John, have you tried creating a proposal to give her? Or send her a set of your posters? Maybe have a letter in there from a surviving airman? I think in this case, it is all about presentation and getting someone in her org's attention. Get them talking. Maybe send them a diecast SpecCast D redtail. I don't think a simple phone call or email will get you the results you need.
Re: Red Tail P-51C
Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:52 pm
jwc50 wrote:John - This is probably one of the most if not THE most important Mustang restoration projects out there right now. I saw this plane at Dayton in July 2003, and its later loss was a real tragedy in human and historic aviation terms.
You and your group are to be commended on this most worthy project.
I will try to send some support when I can.
I know it would be terrific to have this beautiful and important plane at The Gathering of Mustangs in late September of this year, but I realize that the scope and complexity of this project may not allow that. If it cannot be in the air by then, hopefully a major display/booth of some kind will be set up to explain the project and solicit donations.
Keep up the great work. It will be a "red" letter day in warbird restoration history when this airplane is ready to take to the sky once more.
Jim C.
Jim,
Thanks for the pledge of support and words of enthusiasm for the project. We are obviously strong believers in the projects importance as well.
It will definitely be a "Red letter day" when it returns to the air...one I am looking forward to. Unfortunately it won’t be the Gathering of Mustangs and Eagles, not even if we were able to manage full funding today. At this point there is a solid 15 months worth of work to do if we were able to push the "go" button and move it to a front burner project at the shop.
Now I'm just one of the good old boys willing to get dirty and hack his knuckles up on this bird so I can't say what the plans are for a presence at the Round Up. I would however be very surprised if the project was not represented in some manor. I know I'll be there and am willing to hold court with anybody that wants to talk Warbird’s or sample beer after the show!
Django,
We've got some pretty good people working the fundraising so I can assure you more than just a phone call has been made to Oprah’s people. The rich and famous are just real tough to get an audience with when you’re seem to be just another face in the crowd….especially when you have your hand out. Our fundraisers put together a real nice presentation package with a DVD and “the whole nine yards”. I’m also keeping my fingers crossed that the Adam White/Hemlock Films PBS film, “Red Tail Reborn” will reach a whole new audience of people willing to support the project. Getting the word out is half the battle and I for one can’t thank Adam enough for doing a documentary on the project. I can’t wait for the second part of his documentary when the airplane finishes coming together and heads off for its public debut at an airshow near some of you!
John
Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:27 pm
Sounds like you'll just have to become a royal PITA to get some attention then. 
Good luck.
I just added your site to the Save Our History section of our links page. Maybe it will help point a few more eyes in your direction.
http://www.hotrodchassisandcycle.com
Good luck.
I just added your site to the Save Our History section of our links page. Maybe it will help point a few more eyes in your direction.
http://www.hotrodchassisandcycle.com
Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:42 am
On the list of parts needed. There is a company in england that makes the scoop and doghouse assys. I dont recall the name but can get it to you if you like. The are exspensive, but fit perfect. Also, for B/C clam shell inner skins. Call Art Teeters at CA PACIFIC. They had some pressed for ROUSHES B model.