City of Pheonix to buy an aircraft collection from Oregon?
Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:36 am
Any thoughts on what collection they may be after?
I wonder if it would have been less expensive to buy the Champlin collection a few years back....
City to vote on vintage aircraft deal
Some envision museum in Phoenix
Ginger D. Richardson
The Arizona Republic
Oct. 2, 2006 12:00 AM
The Phoenix City Council will vote later this month on whether to spend $9 million to acquire a collection of vintage aircraft, in hopes that the planes might one day be displayed in an aviation museum near Sky Harbor International Airport.
The exhibit would be a tourism draw, but a growing number of opponents are asking whether it would be fiscally irresponsible of the city to purchase the planes.
Phoenix officials have the money to buy the aircraft, but they don't have the cash to build the museum or run it. They say they hope to form a non-profit group to raise the necessary funding, which is expected to be more than $50 million.
But they don't yet know if there are willing donors.
Still, the museum's biggest champion, City Councilman Dave Siebert, is eager to move forward.
"This is something that is long overdue," the longtime councilman said.
For Siebert, time is of the essence. He is one of three council members who will leave office at the end of 2007 because of term limits. He also worries that if the city doesn't act now, it will lose its opportunity to acquire the Oregon-based airplane collection.
A specially appointed committee appears to agree with him. Last month, the panel forwarded a recommendation to buy the planes to Phoenix City Manager Frank Fairbanks. That recommendation sets the stage for the vote later this month.
But whether Siebert's fellow council members share his exuberance for the museum project remains to be seen. So far, few have been willing to comment publicly.
"At this point, there's still more questions than answers, at least from my perspective," City Councilman Claude Mattox said.
Building a museum
Earlier this year, the city hired a consultant to conduct a feasibility study of the project.
Eisterhold Associates Inc., based in Kansas City, Mo., determined that the museum could be a success, in part because of the number of residents living in the Valley and Arizona's status as a tourist destination.
Plans tentatively call for it to be built in a city-owned warehouse just north of Sky Harbor. City officials originally had considered locating it at the airport but have since backed off that idea because of security and crowd-control concerns.
Plans call for the museum to tell the story of Arizona aviation from the 1920s to the present, with a heavy emphasis on military aircraft.
Arizona's ties to military flight go back to World War II, when miles of unending desert made for an ideal training ground. Men and women trained throughout what is now the metropolitan area, from Luke Army Air Field in the West Valley and Thunderbird Field in Phoenix to Williams Army Air Field near Chandler and Falcon Field in Mesa.
Building the museum would cost about $51.9 million, according to the consultant's estimates. Running it would cost roughly $1.4 million annually.
And it's likely that it won't be self-funding, meaning that revenue from ticket and retail sales would not cover its costs.
"It is very difficult, and very rare, for aviation museums to be self-sustaining through earned revenue," the consultant's report said.
In this case, just over half, or 52 percent, of the annual operating costs would need to be covered by outside sources.
Phoenix officials are adamant that city dollars would not be used to build the museum but have released few concrete details about whether there are private donors who might be in the position to donate money for the museum.
That makes some people question whether it's a good idea for the city to move forward with the acquisition of the aircraft.
"Public funding should not be used in this way, particularly when there is no guarantee of private backing," said Susan Copeland, a member of the Downtown Voices coalition.
Acquiring the planes
Little is known now about the collection Phoenix is eyeing, though it is said to contain aircraft dating back to World War I.
City officials have said that it contains roughly 15 planes, but it's not clear how many the city might buy. Specifics have not been released because the city fears doing so would jeopardize negotiations.
But Siebert and others have said that the collection is well suited to telling the story of Arizona aviation.
Phoenix is proposing to buy the vintage aircraft with $9 million it has from the Percent-for-the-Arts Program. That program allows 1 percent of construction projects - in this case, Sky Harbor airport improvements - to go toward enhancing public spaces.
But the idea has upset the arts community.
The Phoenix Arts and Culture Commission usually doles out the program's funds. In this case, though, the city bypassed that board, creating an ad hoc committee with representatives from the community and city departments.
And there is much debate whether the planes qualify as "art."
"My sole opposition is the method in which this was advanced," said Bill Sheppard, former chairman of the Phoenix Arts and Culture Commission.
Next steps
While nothing can officially happen until after the October council vote, some city officials already are tossing out ideas for how and where the aircraft could be displayed in the short term.
The general consensus is that the planes could be shown at Phoenix Sky Harbor until the museum is built.
No matter what shape the museum would ultimately take, Phoenix resident Bob Rakowski says he supports it.
"I think it's a great idea," said Rakowski, a member of the Phoenix Military Veterans Commission, "and I think it will draw a great crowd."
I found it here:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/ ... 1002.html#
I wonder if it would have been less expensive to buy the Champlin collection a few years back....
City to vote on vintage aircraft deal
Some envision museum in Phoenix
Ginger D. Richardson
The Arizona Republic
Oct. 2, 2006 12:00 AM
The Phoenix City Council will vote later this month on whether to spend $9 million to acquire a collection of vintage aircraft, in hopes that the planes might one day be displayed in an aviation museum near Sky Harbor International Airport.
The exhibit would be a tourism draw, but a growing number of opponents are asking whether it would be fiscally irresponsible of the city to purchase the planes.
Phoenix officials have the money to buy the aircraft, but they don't have the cash to build the museum or run it. They say they hope to form a non-profit group to raise the necessary funding, which is expected to be more than $50 million.
But they don't yet know if there are willing donors.
Still, the museum's biggest champion, City Councilman Dave Siebert, is eager to move forward.
"This is something that is long overdue," the longtime councilman said.
For Siebert, time is of the essence. He is one of three council members who will leave office at the end of 2007 because of term limits. He also worries that if the city doesn't act now, it will lose its opportunity to acquire the Oregon-based airplane collection.
A specially appointed committee appears to agree with him. Last month, the panel forwarded a recommendation to buy the planes to Phoenix City Manager Frank Fairbanks. That recommendation sets the stage for the vote later this month.
But whether Siebert's fellow council members share his exuberance for the museum project remains to be seen. So far, few have been willing to comment publicly.
"At this point, there's still more questions than answers, at least from my perspective," City Councilman Claude Mattox said.
Building a museum
Earlier this year, the city hired a consultant to conduct a feasibility study of the project.
Eisterhold Associates Inc., based in Kansas City, Mo., determined that the museum could be a success, in part because of the number of residents living in the Valley and Arizona's status as a tourist destination.
Plans tentatively call for it to be built in a city-owned warehouse just north of Sky Harbor. City officials originally had considered locating it at the airport but have since backed off that idea because of security and crowd-control concerns.
Plans call for the museum to tell the story of Arizona aviation from the 1920s to the present, with a heavy emphasis on military aircraft.
Arizona's ties to military flight go back to World War II, when miles of unending desert made for an ideal training ground. Men and women trained throughout what is now the metropolitan area, from Luke Army Air Field in the West Valley and Thunderbird Field in Phoenix to Williams Army Air Field near Chandler and Falcon Field in Mesa.
Building the museum would cost about $51.9 million, according to the consultant's estimates. Running it would cost roughly $1.4 million annually.
And it's likely that it won't be self-funding, meaning that revenue from ticket and retail sales would not cover its costs.
"It is very difficult, and very rare, for aviation museums to be self-sustaining through earned revenue," the consultant's report said.
In this case, just over half, or 52 percent, of the annual operating costs would need to be covered by outside sources.
Phoenix officials are adamant that city dollars would not be used to build the museum but have released few concrete details about whether there are private donors who might be in the position to donate money for the museum.
That makes some people question whether it's a good idea for the city to move forward with the acquisition of the aircraft.
"Public funding should not be used in this way, particularly when there is no guarantee of private backing," said Susan Copeland, a member of the Downtown Voices coalition.
Acquiring the planes
Little is known now about the collection Phoenix is eyeing, though it is said to contain aircraft dating back to World War I.
City officials have said that it contains roughly 15 planes, but it's not clear how many the city might buy. Specifics have not been released because the city fears doing so would jeopardize negotiations.
But Siebert and others have said that the collection is well suited to telling the story of Arizona aviation.
Phoenix is proposing to buy the vintage aircraft with $9 million it has from the Percent-for-the-Arts Program. That program allows 1 percent of construction projects - in this case, Sky Harbor airport improvements - to go toward enhancing public spaces.
But the idea has upset the arts community.
The Phoenix Arts and Culture Commission usually doles out the program's funds. In this case, though, the city bypassed that board, creating an ad hoc committee with representatives from the community and city departments.
And there is much debate whether the planes qualify as "art."
"My sole opposition is the method in which this was advanced," said Bill Sheppard, former chairman of the Phoenix Arts and Culture Commission.
Next steps
While nothing can officially happen until after the October council vote, some city officials already are tossing out ideas for how and where the aircraft could be displayed in the short term.
The general consensus is that the planes could be shown at Phoenix Sky Harbor until the museum is built.
No matter what shape the museum would ultimately take, Phoenix resident Bob Rakowski says he supports it.
"I think it's a great idea," said Rakowski, a member of the Phoenix Military Veterans Commission, "and I think it will draw a great crowd."
I found it here:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/ ... 1002.html#
Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:26 am
Erickson's Tillamook collection, or a portion of it, at least. This deal has been in the news before.
????
Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:27 am
Any thoughts on what collection they may be after?
If I was a betting man (just going by the WWI wording) I'd say Terry Brandt's huge, wonderful and locked away collection of 30-40 vintage aircraft in Hood River. It is a fablious collection!!! He's living up in Canada I believe and the airplane never see the light of day.
Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:34 am
What does he have locked away up there?
Jerry
Jerry
???
Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:34 am
What does he have locked away up there?
Curtiss Pusher, various models of Stearmans, Buhl, Robin, Travelair,
various Wacos & Ryans and enought SEagull stuff to make a go at it.ect ect..
Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:13 pm
I do not advocate selling aircraft to a public masoleum where they will never see daylight again (Wright Flyer, Enola Gay, Spirit of St. Louis, X-15 excepted). 
If they do this, why not buy the former Champlin Museum facilities? Start small, don't start with the $50M facility!
Why couldn't the museum support itself from reciepts, T-shirts, etc.? Oh that's right, nothing flies so they couldn't have an airshow to draw the public. Oh wait! They still could, but only if they were at an airport- but not the major airline hub. Why don't they hire me as an advisor? For $250K a year I can figure this all out for them. I'd just do exactly what Planes of Fame does!
If they do this, why not buy the former Champlin Museum facilities? Start small, don't start with the $50M facility!
Why couldn't the museum support itself from reciepts, T-shirts, etc.? Oh that's right, nothing flies so they couldn't have an airshow to draw the public. Oh wait! They still could, but only if they were at an airport- but not the major airline hub. Why don't they hire me as an advisor? For $250K a year I can figure this all out for them. I'd just do exactly what Planes of Fame does!
Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:26 pm
First of all, the City of Mesa would never sell the Champlin facilities. They would really rather tear them down and put up new buildings so they can lease them out at a much higher rate. Mesa and Falcon Field has absolutely no interest in historical aircraft as evidenced by their treatment of Gene Packard and their demands that he get rid of his DC-4s immediately. This has became a politically correct town that sees no use for this kind of thing and in fact, Falcon Field would rather just see the CAF Wing there fold up their operation there so they could take over the facilities. The Arizona DOT even refuses to let the CAF put up a sign on the freeway that says CAF Museum, next exit. This thing with the City of Phoenix has been in the works for about five years now and has not moved forward much in that timeframe so I would be very surprised if anything happened at all.
Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:04 am
Jack, you have any pics of the N on floats?????? Have never seen that one!!!! Would love the Bureau #. cause it looks like BoB Van Vrankens airplane.
Need a Registry for the N3N on WIX!!!
Need a Registry for the N3N on WIX!!!
Seagull??
Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:57 am
and enough Seagull stuff to make a go at it.
Do you mean Curtiss SOC? I hope...
Cool Stuff
Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:31 pm
I spy two St. Louis built planes and a Spartan with a three cylinder Jacobs, Yikes!
????
Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:18 pm
I spy two St. Louis built planes and a Spartan with a three cylinder Jacobs, Yikes!
Al, I can't believe you've never heard of this collection. It's huge but never sees the light of day. I don't think anythings been touched in years. I could be wrong through. His nephew was involved in a horrible seaplane accident here a few years ago and Terry stayed in Canada to help him get going up there. I believe he has 35-40 airplanes. Everything from complete restorations to basketcase projects and selves of parts.
Do you mean Curtiss SOC?
Did I studder? I remember taking pictures of the collection and the SOCs big main float. Not quite sure where they are though.
Hood River Collections
Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:13 pm
Jack,
When did Terry Brandt start collecting? The Curtiss Junior looks like one that we nearly purchased in TX a few years ago and the Robin looks a bit like one that was for sale in the upper Midwest (IA?) at about the same time. Was this collection at Hood River back when I was with Evergreen in the late 80s and early 90s? Just for fun, do you have a list of what types are in the collection? Looks cool to me.
When did Terry Brandt start collecting? The Curtiss Junior looks like one that we nearly purchased in TX a few years ago and the Robin looks a bit like one that was for sale in the upper Midwest (IA?) at about the same time. Was this collection at Hood River back when I was with Evergreen in the late 80s and early 90s? Just for fun, do you have a list of what types are in the collection? Looks cool to me.
Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:03 am
anybody have any information on his Spartan?
kevin
kevin
???
Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:36 am
anybody have any information on his Spartan?
jcw might know. He's pretty serious antiquer and owns the one and only Spartan NP-1 (for sale by the way).
When did Terry Brandt start collecting?Was this collection at Hood River back when I was with Evergreen in the late 80s and early 90s? Just for fun, do you have a list of what types are in the collection? Looks cool to me.
A long time ago, he was defently collecting when you were at EVG. I firsh saw the flying pusher and the Buhl with the 3 cylinder at the EVergreen Fly-in (the real fly-in) about 12 years ago. You might call the FBO at Hood river and ask about the collection. His neice Judy runs the McMinnville Airport and the glider operation there.