Is the A-36 an Apache or a Mustang?

[Randy Haskin]

I was at a B-1 base for years, and didn't often hear "Bone". I think it's used more by guys who want to sound cool than the guys (and women) who fly and work on them who are cool.

Every AF pilot I know, especially those who fly it, calls it a "Bone".

[Randy Haskin]

I'm amused thinking about future aviation enthusiasts debating if the B-1 was a "Lancer" or a "Bone". If the F-16 was a "Fighting Falcon" or a "Viper". ad nauseam.

I mean, there's not really any question with those.

https://www.shaw.af.mil/Viper-Demo-Team/

[JohnB]

Re: the (too long) Fighting Falcon name...
One story is that it was supposed to be just "Falcon" after the USAF Academy mascot, but the makers of the French bizjet objected. So "fighting" was added.
True?

There is one precedent... Pan Am made Piper drop the "Clipper" name in the late '40s.
That seems weak since "Clipper" was their fleet name and not the name of a type.
Also no one would confuse a SE short wing fabric Piper with an airliner.

Cessna and Douglas shared "Skyhawk" for many years. Perhaps they were intelligent enough to realize no one would confuse the two. Likewise the Cessna 336 and DC-4 Skymaster

[Hooligan2]

There is one precedent... Pan Am made Piper drop the "Clipper" name in the late '40s.
That seems weak since "Clipper" was their fleet name and not the name of a type.

As I recall, the Cessna 303 was also originally to be named Clipper but Pan Am copyright loomed, so it became the Crusader. Presumably LTV were more accommodating!

[Randy Haskin]

Re: the (too long) Fighting Falcon name...
One story is that it was supposed to be just "Falcon" after the USAF Academy mascot, but the makers of the French bizjet objected. So "fighting" was added.
True?

Unfortunately, no.

The USAF held a contest to name it, and the winner was "Fighting Falcon", all together from the contest submission.

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[JohnB]

Randy

I checked and the story I heard apparently is correct in terms of the AFA mascot.

From the F-16.net website section on the name:
https://www.f16.net/articles_article10. ... e_vignette
"TSgt. Joseph Kurdell explains where he got the inspiration for the name:

"Prior to being stationed at MacDill AFB, Tampa, Florida and after a short tour in Korea, I was teaching at the Photographic Engineering School at Lowery Air Force Base in Colorado.

Being in the vicinity of the Air Force Academy, my family and I used to visit there quite often especially during their football seasons. As you probably know the Falcon (the bird species) is the school mascot, so this is where I got the idea from when given the opportunity to name an aircraft. "

The name "Fighting Falcon" also helped distinguish the F-16 from the "Falcon" series of business jets from French manufacturer Dassault."

You would think the winner of an an AF wide contest would get something more than a dinner at the NCO Club and a letter from a Lt. Colonel head of the base MWR.

While I have had more dinners at O Clubs than I care to remember, the food was always very good, but I would think the winner would have received more.
At least a large Precise desk model from GD!

[Noha307]

There is one precedent... Pan Am made Piper drop the "Clipper" name in the late '40s.

The great irony is that the Pan Am branding ended up on, of all things, train cars.

Also, there's actually another, more relevant precedent, but with the situation being reversed:

Plane Renamed To Save Mixups

Beech Aircraft Corporation has announced its decision to change the trade-name of its newest twin-engine executive business airplane, the Beechcraft "Badger."

Although no other airplane in the world carries the name "Badger," this particular name had been scheduled for use by the USAF and other military organizations as a designation for a particular jet bomber of foreign design.

The USAF designation of the Russian bomber was an alphabetical one without significance of its mission of characteristics. However, the Air Force authorities feared that in the event of an attack on the US there might be some confusion between identification reports of the Russian Badgers (bombers) and the Beechcraft Badgers by some spotters on the defense network.

USAF therefore requested Beech to change the name of the Badger, and the management has announced its intention to do so.

(Source: "Plane Renamed to Save Mixups," Carrier’s Courier, 2 November 1956, 2.)

For reference, the "Badger" became the Travel Air and the Soviet aircraft was the Tu-16.

As a footnote to the "Fighting Falcon" name, the CG-4A that Brigadier General Donald F. Pratt was killed in during the invasion of Normandy, 43-41430, bore the same name. It was a replacement for a presentation aircraft, 42-46574, that was paid for by the students of Greenville Public Schools. Reportedly, 574 was originally named "The Flying Falcon", but the name was changed to "The Fighting Falcon" before the presentation ceremony.[1] The latter was eventually commemorated with a replica at the Fighting Falcon Military Museum in Greenville, Michigan.

[JimH]

A-36 ad from NAA

Attachments

[ColFord]

Can I commend to people to help resolve this once and for all, an article published in the September/October 2023 issue of the EAA Warbirds magazine written by Tom Griffith which sets out the background, history and usage of the 'Apache' name in relation to North American Aviation aircraft, and specifically how the A-36A was never named 'Apache' by NAA or the USAAF.

The photo of the advert posted by Jim dates to September 1941, well before the A-36A was a concept at NAA and before the USAAF was interested in a 'pursuit' produced by NAA. The advert was a part of a push by the NAA Marketing Department to the then USAAC to get them interested in the original NA-73 Mustang I produced for the RAF, with the introduction of the 'Apache' name likely part of a strategy to differentiate aircraft of the type being specifically produced for the US rather than the UK. The aircraft depicted in the drawings used in the advert are more in alignment with the original NA-73 design, rather than the later A-36A.

Tom has included in the article, examples of period use of the 'Apache' name in advertising material, primarily by NAA and Allison engines, all basically well before the A-36A entered production or USAAF service and in relation to aircraft that would equate to the NA-73, NA-83 (RAF Mustang I) or original cannon armed P-51 Mustang (RAF Mustang IA). The article also includes a photo of the telex sent by Dutch Kindelberger to the USAAF setting out all aircraft of the P-51 family, including the A-36 would be known by the name 'Mustang', as well as the cover of a period NAA Parts Catalogue for the A-36A where it gives the type name as 'Mustang'.

Basically what the late Michael Vorassi established years ago regarding the correct name for the A-36A, Tom has followed up on, sought out and found additional original period documentation that clearly established that as far as NAA and the USAAF were concerned during WW2, the A-36A was known as 'Mustang". He also covers off the details of where there was the period where there was the push for the adoption of the use of the name 'Invader' for the A-36A, how it was used in some press and other documentation briefly, then dropped.

[mike furline]

They just called it AIRPLANE.

[ColFord]

They called it MUSTANG.

Attachments

[Baldeagle]

https://youtu.be/E_Efi00WZk4?si=vH4Pa7gv7J3x89Wt



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[JohnB]

Just wondering if there was a precedent in a variant of a type differing enough to warrant having a new type symbol (A) and number (36), yet retaining the name of its progenitor?

Certainly with a new mission and designation, NAA wouldn't be unreasonable in wanting the A-36 to have a different name, regardless of its P-51 DNA.

Without any precedent, NAA and the War Department can be excused for any indecision.
Especially considering "official" names were a fairly new thing, so they were flying blind.

Remember the many Curtiss types shared the unofficial "Falcon" factory PR name.

Even in the future when the authorities had time to think about it, there wasn't a standard.

Perhaps the closest was the C-131 Samaritan and the T-29 Navigator both based on the postwar 240/340 series.

With the Republic F-84 we have different names for different variants with the same type and number:
F-84 Thunderjet, F-84F Thunderstreak and RF-84F Thunderflash. Likewise, the Navy had the F9F Panther and the F9F-8 Cougar. Also the C-9A Nightingale and the Navy C-9B Skytrain II.

The C-47 troop carrier variant C-53 received not only a new number, but a new name: Skytrooper

Then there are examples of variants with different numbers which retain the original nickname (the B-29/B-50 kept the Superfortress name).

So, it's a case of making it up as we went along.

[Mike]

A-36 ad from NAA

Not an A-36. No dive brakes, no wing pylons. Just a plain P-51.

[Mark Allen M]

From some guys who apparently know what they know...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/5936088466462695/

First, you and I and all others in-the-know, KNOW that officially, the A-36A never-EVER had an official name other than "Mustang."

OK ... when Lt, Robert E. Walsh of the 86th FBG in the 12th AF in Italy, an A-36A pilot with many missions "under his belt," and his fellow pilots and ground crewmen called it the "Invader" because, as he's been loosely quoted, "we're always 'invading' somewhere." The story continues... to differentiate it from the the rest of the Mustangs before and after it. He went so far as to get together a petition to the "officials" in the US to change the name of the A-36A to "Invader."

Well, as you know, the earlier aircraft, the Douglas A-26 light-bomber/attack aircraft had already been given that official name, so it was a "nonstarter" from the beginning.

This request from the guys in the 12th AF was well-known in the States, and the use of the "Invader" nickname became so prevalent among folks in the USAAF and NAA, that it even showed up in USAAF reports, newsletters (I've got a PDF of an "Allisonews" newsletter from WWII using the "Invader" name).

NOW, finally (yes, the story DOES have an "end" --- well, kinda-sorta) ... the "Invader" name sneaked into advertising, company newsletters and books like the book that you're showing us (notice that the aircraft artwork in the book you're showing a page from, the aircraft has 3 machine guns in each wing, the nose profile points more to the Merlin Mustang. The pitot probe definitely is like the one seen on all P-51s (that said, it's drawn more like the ones on the bubble-canopy Mustangs).

Here's an ad from a WWII magazine, and this only "helped" to continue the confusion almost 80 yrs after WWII ended.

Well, wasn't THAT fun!