Trainer question

[Steve Birdsall]

A real longshot I guess, but I’m hoping to put a possible or probable time and place on this little photo. Any help much appreciated.

[junkman9096]

Based solely on the photo I'd say between May 1942 (removal of red dot in the national insignia) and June 1943 (application of insignia bars and red insignia surround). Its just a "WAG" though. Location? Just some USAAF base or contract pilot school.

[JohnB]

Determining the location will be difficult.
The numbers on the side do not have a base identified prefix...
The blue & star insignia without the red dot dated from May, '42 to July of '43.

The prewar blue fuselage/yellow wings of trainers went away in '43 too.

Still, the old national emblem would have remained on aircraft until they were recovered....so the photo could date several months after the official change.

The " universal" Stearman (PT-13D/N2S-5) began to be issued to both the Navy and AAF, (both painted in silver) in July of '43.

I have read that in the American Southwest where many or most training bases were, wear, sun and temperatures forced the recovering of airframe every few months.

[Steve Birdsall]

Thanks, I really appreciate the help because I'm out of my depth with this subject. I am satisfied that it's 1943, and one of those three men in the photo was reportedly an air cadet at Santa Ana Army Air Base in April of that year.

[JohnB]

Steve
Glad to help.
I have enjoyed your books.

[Mark Allen M]

Hi Steve, below is a link to the 1943 Class book. Might be something interesting in there.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ssbook.pdf

[bdk]

I have read that in the American Southwest where many or most training bases were, wear, sun and temperatures forced the recovering of airframe every few months.

I don't think that is correct.

The typical lifespan of a butyrate-dope covering was seven to 15 years, although a few well-preserved airplanes still carry their decades-old cotton/dope skins. A friend of mine has a 48-year-old Tri-Pacer wearing its original cotton fuselage fabric. (It’s scheduled for recover this year).

Source: https://www.avweb.com/ownership/ragwing-repair-choices/

My Stearman had decades old cotton fabric on the fuselage (though not WW2 vintage of course) and it was stored outdoors near Palm Springs for years. If the dope starts to fail there are also compounds to "rejuvinate" the dope coatings. The coating applied on top of the bare doped fabric has aluminum paste in it to resist UV degradation of the fabric. The fabric generally gets tested annually with a "punch test" to make sure the fabric has not lost strength.

Butyrate dope replaced nitrate dope postwar for the most part due to the propensity of the cotton to support combustion in the presence of the nitrate dope.

[JohnB]

I was just reporting what I recalled reading...IIRC it was in a AAHS article. It also reported that the late war silver color increased longevity.

A friend has old fabric one of his restored aircraft and it still tests good, but as you say, modern materials are very different than the wartime standard.
Also, unlike today's antiques, I'd wager wartime aircraft rarely saw the inside of a hangar.

All of which makes me wish for a good one source book about American pilot training in the war to answer administration, basing and equipment questions and how personal requirements (standards for education, and physical requirements) changed, as well as how many aircrew were requested/needed by the services. Also, how was upgrade training accomplished once a pilot was rated. My point is training seems to be a neglected area of research. You can piece parts of the story together from reports and articles that address a specific bases or aircraft, but I don't know of an overall examination of the topic in book form.

[bdk]

I was just reporting what I recalled reading...IIRC it was in a AAHS article. It also reported that the late war silver color increased longevity.

Hopefully not being too pedantic but the color coat was applied OVER that same silver dope. The color would have added another layer of environmental protection.

[Noha307]

A real longshot I guess, but I’m hoping to put a possible or probable time and place on this little photo.

Normally I would recommend the Fuselage Codes website, but I don't think it will help here.

All of which makes me wish for a good one source book about American pilot training in the war [...] but I don't know of an overall examination of the topic in book form.

It's not exactly what you're looking for, but Chapter 17: Individual Training of Flying Personnel of the The Army Air Forces in World War II has pretty good coverage of certain of the subject. There's also the paper We Wanted Wings: A History of the Aviation Cadet Program as well as a number of books and papers in the bibliography section of the Civilian Pilot Training Program Wikipedia article. Someone wrote a dissertation about accidents in training called Earning Their Wings (direct link) with a 16 page bibliography that might offer some suggestions for further reading.

how personal requirements (standards for education, and physical requirements) changed

It only addresses the number of stages and hours per stage, but Major Changes in Undergraduate Pilot Training, 1939-2002 has an excellent comparison of how it has changed over the years.

Also, how was upgrade training accomplished once a pilot was rated.

There's a historical monograph about the Pilot Transition to Combat Aircraft from 1944 that might have the answer.

You can piece parts of the story together from reports and articles

I know all of the above sort of just proves your point, but maybe it'll have something useful.

[mike furline]

https://www.aafcollection.info/items/de ... itle!up!20

https://www.aafcollection.info/items/de ... itle!up!20

https://www.aafcollection.info/items/de ... itle!up!20

https://www.aafcollection.info/items/de ... itle!up!20

https://www.aafcollection.info/items/de ... itle!up!20

https://www.aafcollection.info/items/de ... itle!up!20

https://www.aafcollection.info/items/de ... itle!up!20

https://www.aafcollection.info/items/de ... itle!up!20

[Randy Wilson]

Don't know if you have seen Training to Fly; Military Flight Training 1907-1945 by Rebecca Hancock Cameron, Air Force History and Museum Program, 1999, 677 pages. It looks like this is also in a softbound version on abebooks.com. Just FYI.

Randy