P-35 Why no nickname?

[Noha307]

The Recognition Pictorial Manual (FM 30-30/BuAer 3) included two pages titled "NAMES of U.S. Planes" when it was initially released. While the differences between this chart and the lists mentioned in previous posts (1, 2) are insignificant, a comparison with an updated version in Supplement No. 4 is interesting. A number of aircraft have been removed and the following entries have been added or modified:

                 NAVY AND                           ORIGINAL
      ARMY        MARINE CORPS          NAME            MANUFACTURER
. . . . . . . . . . .   SC-1 . . .  Seahawk . . . . . . . . . .  Curtiss
C-64 . . . . . . . . .   JA . . . .  Norseman . . . . . . . . .   Noorduyn
C-74 . . . . . . . . .   . . . . . .  Globemaster. . . . . . . . .  Douglas
C-82 . . . . . . . . .   . . . . . .  Packet . . . . . . . . . . .  Fairchild
C-97 . . . . . . . . .   . . . . . .  Stratocruiser . . . . . . . .  Boeing
. . . . . . . . . . .   PB4Y-2 . .  Privateer . . . . . . . . . .  Consolidated Vultee
B-29 . . . . . . . . .   . . . . . .  Superfortress . . . . . . . .  Boeing
B-26  . . . . . . . .   JM . . . .  Marauder  . . . . . . . . .  Martin
B-34  . . . . . . . .   PV-1, 3 . .  Ventura . . . . . . . . . .  Lockheed
                 PV-2 . . .  Harpoon . . . . . . . . . .  Lockheed
A-26  . . . . . . . .   JD . . . .  Invader . . . . . . . . . .  Douglas
. . . . . . . . . . .   TBM . . .  Avenger . . . . . . . . . .  General Motors
. . . . . . . . . . .   AM . . . .  Mauler . . . . . . . . . .  Martin
. . . . . . . . . . .   AD . . . .  Skyraider . . . . . . . . .  Douglas
. . . . . . . . . . .   JRM  . . .  Mars . . . . . . . . . . .  Martin
P-61  . . . . . . . .   . . . . . .  Black Widow . . . . . . . .  Northrop
P-63  . . . . . . . .   . . . . . .  Kingcobra . . . . . . . . .  Bell
P-80  . . . . . . . .   . . . . . .  Shooting Star . . . . . . . .  Lockheed
P-82  . . . . . . . .   . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  North American 
P-84  . . . . . . . .   . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  Republic
. . . . . . . . . . .   F3A  . . .  Corsair  . . . . . . . . . .  Brewster
. . . . . . . . . . .   FG . . . .  Corsair  . . . . . . . . . .  Goodyear
. . . . . . . . . . .   F7F  . . .  Tigercat  . . . . . . . . . .  Grumman
. . . . . . . . . . .   F8F  . . .  Bearcat  . . . . . . . . . .  Grumman
. . . . . . . . . . .   FR . . . .  Fireball  . . . . . . . . . .  Ryan

(Source: Recognition Pictorial Manual, Supplement No. 4, FM 30–30 (Washington, D.C.: War Department, 1946), 41-42.)

Note that the Avenger, Corsair have been split, with one entry for each manufacturer. Furthermore, the B-34 is split into Ventura/Harpoon. The P-82 and P-84 have not received a name yet and Consolidated has changed to Consolidated Vultee.

EDIT (22-07-12): Fixed an error with the manufacturer's names for the Corsair.

Last edited by Noha307 on Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[bdk]

Aren't these reversed?

Attachments

Capture1.JPG (11.28 KiB) Viewed 2006 times

[Noha307]

Aren't these reversed?

Whoops! My mistake. It should be "Brewster" and "Goodyear", respectively. Good catch.

[Noha307]

The Aircraft Name Designations page on the website Alternate Wars has a bunch of scanned and transcribed primary source documents about the origins of aircraft nomenclature. For example, one document from 3 June 1941 has a list of proposed names for U.S. Navy aircraft:

Type          Manufacturer   Present      Proposed
                     Designation    Supplemental
                               Designation

Fighter         Grumman      F2F        Lightning
            "           F3F        Planet
            "           F4F        Comet
            "           F5F        Sky Rocket
            "           F5F        Meteor
            Vought        F4U        Mercury
            Brewster       F2A        Twister
            "           F3A        Tempest

Torpedo
Bomber        Douglas        TBD        Scorpion
            Grumman      TBF        Dragon
            Vought        TBU        Tarantula

Utility
& Utility        Grumman      JRF        Locust
Transport        "          JRF        Cricket
            Sikorsky       JRS        Scarab

Small
Transport        Beech       GB        Bee
            Beech       JRB        Beetle

Transport        Lockheed     R5O        Lodestar
            Douglas      R2D)        Goliath
            "         R3D)        Goliath
            "         R4D)        Goliath

Scout
Observation      Curtiss       SOC-1,-2,-3     Pioneer
            N.A.F.       SON        Pathfinder
            Curtiss       SO3C        Scout

Observation
Scout         Vought       OS2U        Observer

Scout
Bomber        Vought       SBU-1,-2      Hartford
            "          SB2U-1,-2,
                         -3      Stratford
            Curtiss       SBC3-4       Niagara
            "          SB2C-1       Erie
            Northrup      BT-1        Arrowhead
            Douglas      SBD-1,-2,-3     Mohave
            Brewster      SB2A        Jersey
            N.A.F.       SBN        Delaware

Bomber        Douglas       BD-1        Imperial

Patrol
Bomber        Consolidated    P2Y         Capistrano
            "         PBY         Clemente
            "         PB2Y        Coronado
            Martin       PBM        Maryland
            "         PB2M        Matapeake
            Boeing      PBB         Seattle
            N.A.F.       PBN        Schuylkill

Trainer         Ryan       NR         Padre
            Stearman     N8,N28-1,-2, [Ed. The typist has used "8" in place of "S".]
                          -3     Dixie
            N.A.F.       N3N-1, -3      Quaker
            Spartan      NP         Sooner

Advance [sic]
Trainer         Curtiss      SNC         Yankee
            North American   NJ, SNJ       Bruin.

(Source: Durgin, “Model Designation of Naval Aircraft,” June 3, 1941.)

You can already see where he's been influenced by British thinking – the bombers are given location names that correspond to their manufacturer. However, instead of focusing on alliteration, the names reference where the manufacturer is based. (Although the names for the Consolidated and Martin aircraft do fit the latter condition as well.)

It is interesting to note that a few of the names (Coronado, Lodestar, Sky Rocket) stuck and others were transferred to other aircraft made by the same manufacturer (Maryland, Seattle).

[Noha307]

The thing about the "Jeep" moniker for the AT-9 is that it is very likely an unofficial nickname. NMUSAF's page on their example mentions it, but suggests that the official nickname was "Fledgling". This seems a lot more likely to me considering that a number of the other nicknames for trainers on the list above - Sophomore, Recruit, Kaydet - carried the connotation of a novice or student. This was a trend followed both outside the military (e.g. Interstate S-1 Cadet, Porterfield CP-50 Collegiate) and the United States (e.g. Bücker Bü 133 Jungmeister).

In another point for the "Fledgling" argument, Curtiss had a previous aircraft, the Model 48, that used the same name. The AT-9 is also not the only aircraft that has had the name "jeep" applied to it. As mentioned in a post in another thread, the staff of the Air Corps News Letter - in the process of noting how the name "jeep" is unbefitting for an airplane of the B-17's stature - it is noted as already being applied to autogyros. The best chance for a definitive answer probably lies in the archives, if they still exist, of whatever the Curtiss-Wright company newsletter was at the time.

Interestingly, in the process of searching for more information I came across an article which states the AT-17 was "commonly called" the "Cheese Box". Military use of this moniker goes back to the Civil War, when the USS Monitor was called the "cheese box on a raft".

[JohnB]

A friend who is a journalist who writes about history military vehicles wrote this giving the history of the Jeep name...

"The Associated Press wrote an August 1940 article describing the vehicle undergoing ‘strenuous’ testing at Camp Ripley near Little Falls, Minnesota, and “the Jeep…brought wide acclaim from both officers and enlisted men who saw it perform.” This was over a month before the first Bantam prototype (usually credited as the prototype Jeep) arrived at Camp Holabird, MD. “This new M-M army vehicle was not a crawler, tractor, truck nor tank, and yet it could do almost anything and it knew all the answers,” Minneapolis-Moline wrote in a wartime advertisement. “Because of this, it brought to mind the Popeye cartoon figure called ‘Jeep’ which was neither fowl nor beast, but knew all the answers and could do almost anything."


So, if we look at the origin of the name...The Popeye comics, the "do almost anything" definition could be applied to various aircraft types.

My friend concludes his Jeep name comment with the following, the first of what would become many court cases over the use of the name (and styling trademarks).

"In 1943, M-M, along with Bantam, lodged a formal complaint against Willys staking its claim to the Jeep name with the Federal Trade Commission. While the FTC found Willys to not be in the right, little came of it and M-M eventually surrendered their claim."

[marine air]

I think from nbow on we should refer to the Curtiss AT-9 as the "Fledgling" rather than the nickname "Jeep." The jep four wheel drive 1/4 ton truck was an amazing and innovative design. The Jeep played a huge role in WW II and about three quarters of a million were produced in five years. The name "Fledgling" applies to newly feathered birds that can fly , but not very well. I think the AT-9 is a super cool art deco design aesthetically but it's actual performance was poor. It wasn't a good design and not adaptable to any other roles.
I talked with a Knoxvillian, Ferris Thomas, many years ago that flew for the Ferry Command in WW II. He was one of the very few that could fly the AT-9 without tearing them up. He said he would be the lead pilot and a flight of eight would leave the factory to be delivered to an airbase somewhere. The key was wheel landings only with lots of braking action. He said they always lost two or three during delivery. On one flight he landed and taxied off the runway. He then watch the next 7 pilots ground loop their aircraft or roll them into a ball. They were poorly designed and shouldn't have been produced.
Curtiss, Brewster, Ryan, and Vultee had the best lobbyists and professional liars. Many of their designs shouldn't have been built at all.

[JohnB]

Curtiss, Brewster, Ryan, and Vultee had the best lobbyists and professional liars. Many of their designs shouldn't have been built at all.

Of those you mention, Brewster is perhaps the best documented.
Despite the P-40s record, the AAF wasn't enamored with Curtiss.

Likewise, I don't think The AAF had much use for Northrop.
Or Hughes.
Even a major contractor with a good reputation, Douglas, came in for withering criticism occasionally, if you recall the A-26 issues with it being signaled out in the Truman report.

The AAF also has issues with Martin which carried over into the '50s. They must have had some political clout to get the contract to license build the B-57...likely as a consolation prize for the B-51 not being selected. And of the less than favored wartime contractirs, I find it humorous that it survives, in name at least, as part of a major contractor today.
I have come across snippets of the issues between the two going back to before the war. Maybe AAF leadership just didn't like or trust Glenn Martin.
At any rate, I'd like to know more.
And recall that there is a lot more to Martin than the B-26. It built many of the Air Corps biplane bombers, huge Navy seaplanes as well as the China Clipper for Pan Am, so they had some credentials.
Also, it is little remembered that Martin was going to build any B-35s given the limited Northrop production facilities. Martin must of had some friends...or more likely the desire to use an established facility and workforce after the conclusion of B-26 production.

And in defense of the AT-9, remember a few did provide presumably useful work as proficiency trainers for stateside P-38 units.

Last edited by JohnB on Fri Feb 09, 2024 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Noha307]

For some reason probably related to a database rebuild my reply to shrike's post above went missing, so here it is again:

Perhaps semi-official. I have a Lycoming poster - 1943- on the wall that calls it out as 'Jeep'

Any chance you could post a picture of the poster - or at least the relevant portion?

A quick search of Newspapers.com found potential point in favor of both names. One article noted that the Fledgling name was previously used by the pre-1929 Curtiss company for the Model 48/51 biplane. The other article pointed out that the company developed the VZ-7, which was unofficially called a "flying jeep". However, the other entrants in the competition used similarly jeep inspired names.

Incidentally, another article I came across (which used the term to refer to the C-46 in much the same way as "flying fortress" was for the B-17) led to the discovery that the idea of a "flying freight car" was popular during the war. A second article from 1939 jokingly notes that TWA told hoboes that there were unfortunately no "flying freightcars". Interestingly, it goes on to note that "TWA men say that maybe the 'flying box car' idea grew out of their move about three years ago when the airline removed all the seats from its tri-motored planes and converted them into an air express unit." As evidence of how popular the concept became, according to one article eventually no less than President Roosevelt addressed the issue as it was one of "two issues that have profoundly stirred the American people". It was was apparently tied to a proposal by Henry Kaiser to replace cargo ships with airplanes to avoid enemy submarines. (If this sounds familiar, recall that the original designation for the Spruce Goose was the "HK-1".) This generated an editorial column published the following day next to a cartoon showing "air power" as the winged Pegasus next to a slow moving ox representing "sea transport". Just over a week later, an article declared that the C-54s in production by Douglas were "Flying Freight Cars for U.S. Army" "with capacities equal to those of standard railway boxcars". By 1943 the term was being connected with the "colored front-page fantasies of the old 'Popular Mechanics'" - as one article states. A another article published only six days later uses the term for CG-4s. This would morph into fantastical ideas of for future transport, with one article written by a congressman in 1944 envisioning a "sky train" where civilians boarded multiple color coded gliders launched with RATO and towed in trail behind an airliner.

All in all, this seems to be the origin of not only the unofficial "Flying Boxcar" nickname for the B-24 (as seen in the nose art of a B-24J and F-7), but also the official one for the C-119. (A name that was also present on the nose of the prototype C-82.) It also likely influenced the potentially apocryphal statement about the Budd RB that "for an aircraft built by a railroad car company, it indeed handled like one." Furthermore, the image of "[a]irplanes towing gliders from supply depots to the battle lines" is likely the inspiration for the "Skytrain" name for the C-47. Finally, the theme, now far removed from it's original basis, would eventually be immortalized in the nickname of the B-29 that bombed Nagasaki.

EDIT (22-10-18): A couple more points reinforce the hold the concepts above had on the popular discourse at the time. First, the 1945 film The World Owes Me a Living features the concept of a "freight-carrying glider" as a major plot point. (Apparently, the Horsa is used as the stand-in.) Interestingly, given the use of the mythical animal in the cartoon mention above, the pilots in the film operate out of "Pegasus Flying Field". (The Pegasus was also used as a logo by Mobil, which was involved in aviation during the 1920s and 30s. Other uses of the name include a model airplane from 1929, a series of engines developed by Bristol, and the KC-46.) Meanwhile, some "Flying Boxcar" imagery very similar to the nose art on the B-24s mentioned above was depicted on the cover of the 1951 book Boxcars in the Sky.

[Matt Gunsch]

The North American P-64 did not have a name.

[JohnB]

Noha307

Re: the "Flying Boxcar" name..I believe you will find that name applied early on in the history of the C-82.
I get the impression it was purely descriptive (by journalists or the company) and not a trademarked nickname like "Flying Fortress" and others.

The "Tactical Haulers" chapter of Bill Norton's excellent
American Aircraft Development of WWII...Special Types 1939-1945 Crecy, 2016...has an early general arrangement drawing of the Fairchild.
The drawing clearly illustrates the very Box Car-like internal dimensions with constant length, width and height. This, coupled with a flat floor made possible by the tricycle gear arrangement and straight through back loading made the C-82 a trendsetter which is very underappreciated today.

[Matt Gunsch]

Noha307
The "Tactical Haulers" chapter of Bill Norton's excellent
American Aircraft Development of WWII...Special Types 1939-1945 Crecy, 2016...has an early general arrangement drawing of the Fairchild.
The drawing clearly illustrates the very Box Car-like internal dimensions with constant length, width and height. This, coupled with a flat floor made possible by the tricycle gear arrangement and straight through back loading made the C-82 a trendsetter which is very underappreciated today.

The C-82 was not the first, the RB-1 Budd Conestoga, had tricycle gear, rear loading and constant cargo bay size, and it was flying during WWII.

[JohnB]

Matt
You are correct. The Budds did see limited service with the Navy. During five months of testing there were five crashes/mishaps, two write-offs and one death. They never did solve skin crack issues and it is said that over time, the wings "assumed even more dihedral...".

The even lesser known wooden Curtiss C-76 was also out there and saw some (very problematic) limited service in the war (16 YC-76s were flown by the Air Service Command to transport material between depots) which is more you can say about the Fairchild.
The book I mention above deals with the Caravan at length. Spoiler alert...it doesn't have much positive to say about it

But to give full credit, one has to admire the Arado AR 232 for pioneering the tri-gear twin boom and fuselage pod layout.

However, the C-82 went onto a fairly decent career, but its main contribution is that it was the predecessor of the
C-119, arguably the first modern military tactical transport.

Last edited by JohnB on Sat Feb 10, 2024 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Hooligan2]

s
The even lesser known wooden Curtiss C-76 was also out there and saw some (very problematic) limited service in the war (16 YC-76s were flown by the Air Service Command to transport material between depots) which is more you can say about the Fairchild.

Another type I'd never heard of before today!

[Noha307]

trademarked nickname like "Flying Fortress" and others.

So, you gave me an interesting idea. I searched the United States Patent and Trademark Office office records, but the only trademark I was able to find was, 76,237,797, which was filed in 2001 for toy gliders. However, according to the NYPL, the database only covers dead trademarks since 1984. A quick search of Google Books for "Flying Fortress" and "Trademark" found me the 1938 edition of the Official Gazette of the United States Patent and Trademark Office, which had the original trademark, 400,587, for "airplanes and structural parts thereof", on page 441:

Patent 400,587.png (31.37 KiB) Viewed 1652 times

It is worth noting that while the public rollout of the B-17 was on 16 July 1935, Boeing only claimed usage since 2 December 1937. So it took them a year and a half to actually start using it. The delay wasn't a result of legal red tape either, as the trademark was filed only six days after first usage. It would be interesting to see if there were any materials that were published by the company on the 2nd.