11/12/2022 - Texas Raiders and P-63 King Cobra collide

[lmritger]

Elephant in the room time: unless I'm very wrong (and that happens a lot - I'm married, I'm used to it by now), wouldn't the FAA have to sign off or otherwise approve of the show plan which is now in question due to the lack of vertical deconfliction?

Not trying to deflect from the obvious tragic failure of the show plan/air boss here, but isn't the FAA basically "THE LAW" when it comes to airspace authority/clearances for any show?

And the more I think through this sequence of events, the worse I feel for Craig (the 63 pilot) - he was literally following the air boss's instructions to the letter, trying to cross the bomber stream to get on the 500 foot line before the grandstands and just lost sight of the 17 below the nose of his ship. Which raises another question... WHEN did the air boss issue that instruction to the fighters to speed up, pass the bombers, then do a line astern pass on the 500 foot line, and where were the fighters when that order was received?

Lynn

[Xray]

Elephant in the room time: unless I'm very wrong (and that happens a lot - I'm married, I'm used to it by now), wouldn't the FAA have to sign off or otherwise approve of the show plan which is now in question due to the lack of vertical deconfliction?

Not trying to deflect from the obvious tragic failure of the show plan/air boss here, but isn't the FAA basically "THE LAW" when it comes to airspace authority/clearances for any show?

And the more I think through this sequence of events, the worse I feel for Craig (the 63 pilot) - he was literally following the air boss's instructions to the letter, trying to cross the bomber stream to get on the 500 foot line before the grandstands and just lost sight of the 17 below the nose of his ship. Which raises another question... WHEN did the air boss issue that instruction to the fighters to speed up, pass the bombers, then do a line astern pass on the 500 foot line, and where were the fighters when that order was received?

Lynn

Still in the realm of speculation, which we are trying to avoid, but it is very common, nearly SOP, for aircraft being given a heading with other aircraft known to be in the vicinity, to be asked or to volunteer "Do you have traffic in sight" ,, "Rodger, have traffic in sight". That right there would have avoided the need for this thread, so thats one thing I'd really like to know. If in fact the fighter was told to overtake the bomber[s] to draw in for a pass closer to the crowd, then the fighter knew there was a stream of bombers in the immediate vicinity, which he did not have a visual on [at least 1] so ,,, We'll have to wait and see. Perhaps he saw the bomber trailing the B-17 to his right and thought he was the lead.
As far as when and where, not sure about the when, though that should be simple to establish, the where, you can glean alot of real time awareness of the flight tracks right up to the collision by pursuing the relevant ADS-B data, a link to which I posted early in the thread [1st few pages I think]

[Randy Haskin]

Elephant in the room time: unless I'm very wrong (and that happens a lot - I'm married, I'm used to it by now), wouldn't the FAA have to sign off or otherwise approve of the show plan which is now in question due to the lack of vertical deconfliction?

Not trying to deflect from the obvious tragic failure of the show plan/air boss here, but isn't the FAA basically "THE LAW" when it comes to airspace authority/clearances for any show?

And the more I think through this sequence of events, the worse I feel for Craig (the 63 pilot) - he was literally following the air boss's instructions to the letter, trying to cross the bomber stream to get on the 500 foot line before the grandstands and just lost sight of the 17 below the nose of his ship. Which raises another question... WHEN did the air boss issue that instruction to the fighters to speed up, pass the bombers, then do a line astern pass on the 500 foot line, and where were the fighters when that order was received?

Lynn

There's always an FAA rep or two in the airboss briefing. If that guy had a problem with the plan, he could have stepped in at any time.

[Xray]

Am I correct that this reassembling of the fighter/bomber streams ordered by airboss was not briefed, and was not part of their practice flight - In effect, improvised on the fly ? [I understand that they only had 1 day of practice due to weather]

[RyanShort1]

There's always an FAA rep or two in the airboss briefing. If that guy had a problem with the plan, he could have stepped in at any time.

100% That has been true at every airshow briefing I've ever been at. I think last year that there might have been FOUR FAA folks at the show. Very friendly, had a good chat with one.

Here's part of what is supposed to be in play.

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/a ... isions.pdf

Last edited by RyanShort1 on Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[RyanShort1]

Am I correct that this reassembling of the fighter/bomber streams ordered by airboss was not briefed, and was not part of their practice flight - In effect, improvised on the fly ? [I understand that they only had 1 day of practice due to weather]

Yes, Friday's show was cancelled due to weather, but that happens at shows across the country every year.
Regarding the briefing - it's all a bit nebulous at this point, and a lot of the tidbits leaked seem to be incomplete. Keep in mind, the CAF has roughly 175 planes and something like 75 units, with all kinds of pilot personalities. It's probably a bit like herding cats and no leader is going to make everyone happy. There are PLENTY of disgruntled former CAF types out there, so you have to take a lot of the comments with the knowledge that some of them may be from a place of discontent, deserved or not. In fact, I personally think that the current guys at the top have been working very hard to improve safety, which can be seen in the recent changes in the manuals and videos which are required for operations every year. That makes this accident, right here at HQ particularly frustrating.

That said, it's not like a racetrack or dogbone is difficult.

I know when I flew at Wings Over Houston there was a side briefing for all the L's and O's. We ended up with a three layer stack. The L's an O's were at 300', the T-6s and BTs were at 600' above us, and the Twin Beeches were above them, I think at 900.' In that particular show, it was a racetrack.

Keep in mind, the P-63 pilot was also the Exec Officer for Tora and they had literally flown a number of airshows even this year, so it's not like they weren't capable of executing it, even without the Friday practice, something just went way, way wrong in the timing.

[RyanShort1]

Duplicate

[Xray]

Am I correct that this reassembling of the fighter/bomber streams ordered by airboss was not briefed, and was not part of their practice flight - In effect, improvised on the fly ? [I understand that they only had 1 day of practice due to weather]

Yes, Friday's show was cancelled due to weather, but that happens at shows across the country every year.
Regarding the briefing - it's all a bit nebulous at this point, and a lot of the tidbits leaked seem to be incomplete. Keep in mind, the CAF has roughly 175 planes and something like 75 units, with all kinds of pilot personalities. It's probably a bit like herding cats and no leader is going to make everyone happy. There are PLENTY of disgruntled former CAF types out there, so you have to take a lot of the comments with the knowledge that some of them may be from a place of discontent, deserved or not. In fact, I personally think that the current guys at the top have been working very hard to improve safety, which can be seen in the recent changes in the manuals and videos which are required for operations every year. That makes this accident, right here at HQ particularly frustrating.

That said, it's not like a racetrack or dogbone is difficult.

I know when I flew at Wings Over Houston there was a side briefing for all the L's and O's. We ended up with a three layer stack. The L's an O's were at 300', the T-6s and BTs were at 600' above us, and the Twin Beeches were above them, I think at 900.' In that particular show, it was a racetrack.

Keep in mind, the P-63 pilot was also the Exec Officer for Tora and they had literally flown a number of airshows even this year, so it's not like they weren't capable of executing it, even without the Friday practice, something just went way, way wrong in the timing.

Excellent insights and views, agree 100%.
I'm very safety conscious and I work construction, safety concerns have been drilled into my head over and over so many times that I carry it with me away from the job, almost subconsciously - I can't even imagine the levels of safety those tasked with flying WW2 aircraft practice, but I am sure they are comprehensive, professional and up to and past any mandated safety standards. Of course, none of the crews may have been at fault, all of them, or partial, we will know that in due time.

Out of curiosity, there are never THUR practices for CAF shows ? 2 days of practice is pretty common in my neck of the woods [sometimes 3 with jet acts]

[lmritger]

Am I correct that this reassembling of the fighter/bomber streams ordered by airboss was not briefed, and was not part of their practice flight - In effect, improvised on the fly ? [I understand that they only had 1 day of practice due to weather]

Yes, Friday's show was cancelled due to weather, but that happens at shows across the country every year.
Regarding the briefing - it's all a bit nebulous at this point, and a lot of the tidbits leaked seem to be incomplete. Keep in mind, the CAF has roughly 175 planes and something like 75 units, with all kinds of pilot personalities. It's probably a bit like herding cats and no leader is going to make everyone happy. There are PLENTY of disgruntled former CAF types out there, so you have to take a lot of the comments with the knowledge that some of them may be from a place of discontent, deserved or not. In fact, I personally think that the current guys at the top have been working very hard to improve safety, which can be seen in the recent changes in the manuals and videos which are required for operations every year. That makes this accident, right here at HQ particularly frustrating.

That said, it's not like a racetrack or dogbone is difficult.

I know when I flew at Wings Over Houston there was a side briefing for all the L's and O's. We ended up with a three layer stack. The L's an O's were at 300', the T-6s and BTs were at 600' above us, and the Twin Beeches were above them, I think at 900.' In that particular show, it was a racetrack.

Keep in mind, the P-63 pilot was also the Exec Officer for Tora and they had literally flown a number of airshows even this year, so it's not like they weren't capable of executing it, even without the Friday practice, something just went way, way wrong in the timing.

Thanks for these insights, Ryan - they're helpful and give us additional insights as to how things are usually done. A question about your WoH experience, if I may - you mention a separate briefing for the Ls/Os, was this stack arrangement considered SOP for your class of aircraft, and was that plan with the vertical separations duplicated with the bigger/faster aircraft, to your knowledge? Here's why I ask - I know there's not a single "air boss" who executes each show for the CAF but I'm wondering if CAF (and the FAA) have left separation discussions to the discretion of local showrunners, instead of mandating separation distances as part of SOP.

Thanks again,

Lynn

[RyanShort1]

Thanks for these insights, Ryan - they're helpful and give us additional insights as to how things are usually done. A question about your WoH experience, if I may - you mention a separate briefing for the Ls/Os, was this stack arrangement considered SOP for your class of aircraft, and was that plan with the vertical separations duplicated with the bigger/faster aircraft, to your knowledge? Here's why I ask - I know there's not a single "air boss" who executes each show for the CAF but I'm wondering if CAF (and the FAA) have left separation discussions to the discretion of local showrunners, instead of mandating separation distances as part of SOP.

So, first off, I'm NO expert and my show count was pretty low. I flew in maybe three shows about 10 years ago, but have also attended briefings as a photographer or participant since then. I was also asked to be a local CAF Unit Ops Officer about three years ago. I wasn't really looking for the job, but kind of got shoed in since I was the most experienced pilot in the unit, so I got a good look at the safety changes, and what is going on. I really do think they have been making massive efforts to try and prevent needless accidents.

I think SOP really depends on the individual show and also the weather, and the participants. I think that what we did that year at Wings Over Houston probably happens there every year, with minor changes. That said, what works one year might have to change up the next because of prevailing winds the next, for instance, or a change at the airport, like Amazon driving huge changes at the Alliance Airport this year, so there's a built-in need for flexibility. Another factor is that different parts of the country have different FAA offices, like Dallas and Houston and San Antonio might all likely use the same airboss, but they are all in different FAA jurisdictions. I'm sure that there are other factors, like how different cities might want things done, too. At Dallas Executive (Redbird) there are some very sensitive neighbors, even though the airport has probably been there longer than those neighbors, so that drives things a bit, as well.

Regarding separation, I think that this is a deal that hasn't been enough of an issue to get a rule made, perhaps, on the FAA's part? Air bosses have done a good enough job of separation in previous years at WOD that maybe it just wasn't on anybody's radar that it could get that bad. Sometimes it takes blood for there to be a realization that it might be in everyone's best interest to make a new rule.

[p51]

Elephant in the room time: unless I'm very wrong (and that happens a lot - I'm married, I'm used to it by now), wouldn't the FAA have to sign off or otherwise approve of the show plan which is now in question due to the lack of vertical deconfliction?

I ran this by a friend who is an Air traffic controller and he said SOP is to turn over the entire airspace to the airshow air boss for the show's timeframe and the ATC folks stand back and let it happen.

[Dave Hadfield]

I've flown about 20 major airshows in the last 5 years, in P-40/Mustang/Spitfire or oddballs such as the Lysander. And lots before that. I'm currently Chief Pilot for a warbird collection. Here's how it works:

The regulatory authority (FAA, TC, CAA etc) authorize the use airshow's use of certain airspace. This is published as a Special Flight Operations Certificate (name can change depending on the country) for that airshow. Each performer is listed in it, and also their "limits" if any (such as Surface, or 200 ft above ground, etc). Each pilot (or representative if it's a team) has to sign it before the show.

The Airboss conducts the show briefing on the morning of every show day. If the pilot doesn't show up, they don't fly (unless the Airboss gives a special one-on-one briefing). Mandatory attendance. Roll call.

The show briefing addresses time-hack, airspace, showlines, freqs, weather, ramp-use, holding areas, alternate airports, weather, etc. It is very thorough. Then the schedule is gone through meticulously, who-flies-when. Sometimes start and taxi times are stipulated. Pilots speak up if they are not sure of deconfliction procedures, or formation join airspace, recovery, etc. Problems are usually identified and solved right there on the spot. Sometimes it's see-me-after-the-briefing, but that's rare, and usually only if info is required from another source.

Airspace deconfliction can be vertical or horizontal, or both; it's the AirBoss' decision. It is always discussed, and required to be understood before the show starts.

A person from the regulatory authority may be there for the briefing, or may not -- it's at their discretion. They don't give the briefing, in fact they don't speak to the group. If they have a query, they speak to the AirBoss privately.

After the briefing the teams meet separately to go over their acts, and ensure it conforms to the AirBoss' show-plan as presented at the briefing. They go into great detail amongst themselves to cover walk-start-taxi-takeoff times, rejoin location and altitude, comms, the display maneuvers, the formation break, recovery -- then contingencies, and de-brief time and place.

The airshow itself rarely goes according to the plan. Weather, or aircraft scrubs, change the schedule. The AirBoss has to react on-the-fly. Pilots get the message by phone, usually from an assistant-airboss, or by the VHF. "

Sometimes the SFOC throws a curveball. In this airshow I flew the SFOC wasn't granted until the day before and had a very surprising airspace restriction: https://youtu.be/yOthZs2koJw

If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask. I won't comment on the recent collision though.

Dave

[marine air]

Thanks and very informative. Question for you David; I know in formation flying they will ask only the lead to keep his XPonder on and the other aircraft to put theirs on standy. ALso, he is the only one communicating with ATC or in this case, Airboss. So, as it pertains to ADSB, do the individual participating aircraft keep their ADSB on or are they turned off for the airshow?

[p51buff]

Dave,

Many thanks for your extensive posts in this thread.

One of my closest friends was involved in the mishap (not flight crew in any of the airplanes), and we've been in constant communication since it happened. Like they say, "Those who know aren't talking, those who aren't, are." so I can add that even post-NTSB short brief, 99...% of what's out there is incorrect.


Godspeed to those we lost. If you know someone who was there, call them and check on them.

[Xray]

Thanks and very informative. Question for you David; I know in formation flying they will ask only the lead to keep his XPonder on and the other aircraft to put theirs on standy. ALso, he is the only one communicating with ATC or in this case, Airboss. So, as it pertains to ADSB, do the individual participating aircraft keep their ADSB on or are they turned off for the airshow?

You can check yourself here, if not aware
posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=648916

Not sure how well this link will work if you are not a subscriber, and will for sure have to play around with settings.

Texas Raiders shows up [apparently taxiing] around 15:17Z, takes off around 15:27 Orbits to the south under 2,000 ft, lands around 15.51, I presume this was a customer flight, off line at 15:57.
Other aircraft show up in this time frame, including P-51 and B-25 and B-24 shortly after TR lands. Back online at 16:23 taxiing, takes off again at 16:29 after B-24 lands. Flies a different and longer orbit, landing at 16:53. Around 1700 numerous aircraft are making obvious show passes, TR back online at 17:12., and back up in the air at 17:15 along with 5 T6, a P-51 and one listed as VALI, whatever that is. TR orbits again to the south while the single seaters do numerous show passes, and appears to do a flyby at 17:31 and another at 17:36. Forms up with 4 T-6 as the B-24 takes off at 17:46, they orbit and do a flyby.
At this point another aircraft is in the mix but has no type or callsign attached. TR lands at 17:57 along with a P-51, offline at 18:03.

[Didn't plan on doing this and I know no one asked, gotta go but I'll try to retrace the last moments later]

Ok lets try to finish this.
Somewhat of a lull while the next acts get worked up, including more T-6's and a DC-3. Big lull, 18:32 and 3 Beech 18's and the DC-3 are making multiple passes, all are on the ground by 18:46.
B-25 takes off around 19:06, B-24 taxiing and takes off shortly thereafter, with an unidentified aircraft. All 3 do passes while a Mustang prepares for takeoff. P-63 shows up for the first time around 19:13.
[B-24 and B-25 along with 2 unidentified aircraft appear to be doing formation passes, which may answer the question if all in a formation transpond]

The 2 Mustangs and the P-63 are also in formation and each individually showing up as they do their show passes. At 19:30 the 2 Mustangs are orbiting to the north, the B-25 and 24 along with an unidentified aircraft are orbiting to the south, and I lost track of the P-63, must have either landed and I didn't notice or is having transponder issues.

Ok I looked back at the data and this is weird, at 19:22 the P-63 transponder stops, might be the time of the crash [showing an altitude of 600 ft]. Thing is, the data never does show TR getting back in the air, never saw it again after it landed at 17:57. The other aircraft in the air when the P-63 data stopped orbited around for a while then landed at an alternate field to the southwest. So I am going to see if I can figure this out, I know the ADSB feed showed both aircraft right up until impact, but for whatever reason is not showing it on replay.
Welp, can't figure out why the B-17 doesn't show, check around the 13:00 mark of this for an ADSB overlay of the incident if interested https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C342dfNPCyg

Last edited by Xray on Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.