11/12/2022 - Texas Raiders and P-63 King Cobra collide

[Chris Brame]

Story here: https://www.thedroningcompany.com/blog/ ... ver-dallas
(Note: no E in "thedroningcompany"

[RyanShort1]

If the P-63 and B-17's flight paths were close enough that that "last second" possible drone was an issue, there's a bigger issue than the drone to deal with.

I'm not in the drone camp, I think there was a serious error in timing.

[Xray]

Did I read somewhere that the air boss was rather new at this job, with somewhat limited experience? Is that something we can discuss, or should this be off the table?

Certainly a relevant issue, I'd say best to post a link to where you read it, so long as it isn't reddit or some such.

The drone would be a bombshell if true, but as others stated or implied, there was no where near the proper separation of the accident aircraft in the first place, so would have been a contributing factor at most. Tough to believe than anyone could be so malicious as to operate a drone in a stream of aircraft.

[ZRX61]

The drone story is coming out of a newspaper in Asia, I would have thought at least ONE US based source would have seen the same thing...

[ZRX61]

Did I read somewhere that the air boss was rather new at this job, with somewhat limited experience? Is that something we can discuss, or should this be off the table?

There's a story going around that he is the son of the guy who did it for years & who just retired... So even if he was new at the job, he would have been around his dad doing it for 20 years or more.

[Randy Haskin]

Did I read somewhere that the air boss was rather new at this job, with somewhat limited experience? Is that something we can discuss, or should this be off the table?

There's a story going around that he is the son of the guy who did it for years & who just retired... So even if he was new at the job, he would have been around his dad doing it for 20 years or more.

There's no "story": Russ Royce was the airboss at WoD, and he's the son of Ralph Royce. Ralph was one of the original guys who set up the entire "trained and certified airboss" concept with ICAS and the FAA decades ago.

https://thunderandlightningoverarizona.com/performers/ralph-royce-air-boss/

Ralph Royce began flying at 17, was Executive Director of the CAF, joined the Lone Star Flight Museum of 1991 and founded the Texas Aviation Hall of Fame. Type rated in the B17, TBM, F6F, C60 (L18), he holds an unlimited piston powered letter from the FAA, has flown over 100 air shows, and air bossed over 250 shows. Involved in Air Show production and management since 1976, he has operated an aviation event consulting and air boss/announcing business for twenty years and is well known throughout the Air Show industry.

Royce is Chairman of the International Council of Air Shows’ Safety Committee. He is lead instructor for the Industry’s Air & Ground Operations Seminar, both basic and advanced, taught at the ICAS Convention, the FAA Academy, and the USAF Air Show Workshop. Having an excellent relationship within the air show community, as well as the FAA, Royce was selected to be the civilian consultant and air boss to the USAF’s 5th Anniversary Golden Air Tattoo at Nellis AFB

[Randy Haskin]

I'm not in the drone camp, I think there was a serious error in timing.

The drone is a red herring, even if one was actually there as postulated in the video.

This incident is turning out to be both a planning and execution fail based on the evidence so far, and that would have been true drone or no drone.

[ZRX61]

There's no "story"

I know, that's what I said.

[Lynn Allen]

Story here: https://www.thedroningcompany.com/blog/ ... ver-dallas
(Note: no E in "thedroningcompany"

My bad...

[JohnB]

About the drone theory...
-Would either pilot have been able to see a small drone? (Question based on earlier comments on page 2 of this thread that based on poster's experience, the P-63 was following a Mustang and may not have seen the B-17 until it was too late).
-If so, would they really take evasive action knowing they were in a formation?
-And if so, wouldn't a warbird pilot simply think "I'm bigger than it is" and hold course, after all, a small drone would not pose much of a threat to a warbird (as opposed to a smaller, more fragile type). Would it be worse than a large birdstrike?
-If the drone was large enough for the pilot to think evasive action was necessary, wouldn't it have been seen by someone (or on video) and it would be known by now?

Just asking....

Last edited by JohnB on Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

[RyanShort1]

About the drone theory...
-Would either pilot have been able to see a small drone? (Question based on earlier comment that based on poster's experience, the P-63 may not have seen the B-17 until it was too late).
-If so, would they really take evasive action knowing they were in a formation?
-And if so, wouldn't a warbird pilot simply think "I'm bigger than it is" and hold course, after all, a small drone would not pose much of a threat to a warbird (as opposed to a smaller, more fragile type). Would it be worse than a large birdstrike?
-If the drone was large enough for the pilot to think evasive action was necessary, wouldn't it have been seen by someone (or on video) and it would be known by now?

1. Not if he was looking for the preceding P-51C and the show line. Remember, just like with the B-17, objects on a coliision course tend to have NO relative motion, they only get bigger. Drones are tiny, and usually not colored well for visibility. I have to fly them sometimes for work, and I am pretty sure it would be a real challenge to see and avoid especially if you weren't looking for it.
2. I doubt one would recognize a small drone in time to maneuver.
3. Depends on where it hits.
4. This. The NTSB and Dallas Police and everyone would be talking and looking for the drone operator if a drone was found in the wreckage, or nearby, and there were serious aviation photographers shooting high-res photos near the spot, too, so very, very unlikely we wouldn't have a better "drone" photo by now. That was probably a bird or piece of trash in that video, and not in the P-63's vicinity at all.

[RyanShort1]

About the drone theory...
-Would either pilot have been able to see a small drone? (Question based on earlier comment that based on poster's experience, the P-63 may not have seen the B-17 until it was too late).
-If so, would they really take evasive action knowing they were in a formation?
-And if so, wouldn't a warbird pilot simply think "I'm bigger than it is" and hold course, after all, a small drone would not pose much of a threat to a warbird (as opposed to a smaller, more fragile type). Would it be worse than a large birdstrike?
-If the drone was large enough for the pilot to think evasive action was necessary, wouldn't it have been seen by someone (or on video) and it would be known by now?

1. Not if he was looking for the preceding P-51C and the show line. Remember, just like with the B-17, objects on a coliision course tend to have NO relative motion, they only get bigger. Drones are tiny, and usually not colored well for visibility. I have to fly them sometimes for work, and I am pretty sure it would be a real challenge to see and avoid especially if you weren't looking for it.
2. I doubt one would recognize a small drone in time to maneuver.
3. Depends on where it hits.
4. This. The NTSB and Dallas Police and everyone would be talking and looking for the drone operator if a drone was found in the wreckage, or nearby, and there were serious aviation photographers shooting high-res photos near the spot, too, so very, very unlikely we wouldn't have a better "drone" photo by now. That was probably a bird or piece of trash in that video, and not in the P-63's vicinity at all.

[Xray]

NTSB preliminary report is out, some tidbits but not a whole lot of info

[Couldn't find a direct link on the NTSB page, this site pretty much reposts it, and links to the report]

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local ... 63391506b4

edit: I see it has been posted already

[Hooligan2]

Re the "drone", as mentioned on several other forums, there was an aerial survey C310 flying on an east-west leg at 5000' and it was just around a mile due north when the collision happened.The object in the video is indistinct and could well have been the 310. I certainly don't think the P-63 hit anything other than the B-17.

[Xray]

As mentioned, any drone operator in those circumstances would have been considered a murderer and there would have been an immediate manhunt had a drone caused or been implicated in the crash. That didn't happen so I think it can be safely dismissed as a poor conspiracy theory for now.

Back to the subject, not looking good for the airboss and I really feel for the guy, but still obviously not enough info to reach any conclusions. Tough to understand why/how the need arose for him to call for a converging maneuver between 2 groups of different aircraft types that wasn't briefed or even separated by altitude, guess we'll find out in the final, or perhaps sooner if airboss audio is released.