11/12/2022 - Texas Raiders and P-63 King Cobra collide

[dougdrivr]

Take a look at the first 10 seconds of this video. The Mustang preceding the B-17, that the P-63 was following and most likely concentrating on, appears to be dead ahead of the collision.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O0fb0cKp3Y

there is another video shot from the same location that has the 51 passing almost directly over the top of the photographer, the B-17 is a fair distance behind and to the right of the fighters, as they would be if they were flying on their show lines, the 63 flew far to the fighters right and was closing on the 17. https://youtu.be/Qfz7eFSX_FU, the attached photo shows the fighters path in blue, the B-17 in red, point of impact was just inside the airport boundary fence.

I've seen that video too, but his flight path is taking him directly across the B-17's flight path

Attachments

[Mark Allen M]

Anyone know how and where the other aircraft landed after the mid-air? Were they able to land at the same field or did they have to go somewhere else?

Must have been horrifying for those pilots who witnessed the crash and extremely difficult to recover and concentrate on landing.

What an awful awful thing to witness. Brings back the very same feelings as the Reno crash a few years ago. Every Warbird crash is horrific but these two really stand out for some reason. It’s probably because both were witnessed clearly by so many people.

Just awful

[Xray]

When these things happen it is inevitable that people speculate and try to understand the situation. I get that and I want to know too.
But understand this, assigning blame is not our job. We are spectators, either directly or indirectly and we have no ability to KNOW anything.
Any speculation or comments will be done in a respectful manner or there will be repercussions.

These men were doing what they love and what we love too. I would have flown with any of them.
Respect their memories and learn from this tragedy.

Perfectly agree and well stated, I self edited a post of mine that was a bit tacky, and am not looking for a repeat.
Would request, if you think appropriate, no embedded crash pics/videos in this thread, only links. One was posted, no offense to the poster, but I think we all have seen the crash, most multiple times, and its not good seeing them unexpected in a discussion thread, for me its something that I like to prepare myself for.

Saw one fatal air show crash in 1994 [T-33 in Thunderbird livery at Selfridge ANGB MI], and that stays with you

[Randy Haskin]

Anyone know how and where the other aircraft landed after the mid-air? Were they able to land at the same field or did they have to go somewhere else?

The Liberator went to Lancaster, as I'm assuming several others did.

[Randy Haskin]

One thing I've wondered is just how big that zone is around Dallas Executive, and whether there was a sufficient safety margin to allow for multiple tracks within the "box" which would allow for some degree of deviation without busting the limits.

There are different required min-distances to the crowd line between the bombers (Cat II performers) and the fighters (Cat I performers).

I think the more relevant unknown is, what exactly was the airboss' deconfliction plan between the bomber flight and fighter flight.

Without knowing that, the rest of the discussion is almost moot.

There is an assumption by many right now that the airboss' plan was to geographically deconflict the two flights, and so far as I'm aware that's not an established fact yet.

[Kyleb]

There is an assumption by many right now that the airboss' plan was to geographically deconflict the two flights, and so far as I'm aware that's not an established fact yet.

Yeah, but the FAA, NTSB, Airboss, FSDO rep, and everyone in the briefing know. We won't be left wondering for long.

[lucky52]

It will be two or three years before a final report from the NTSB will be finished.A preliminary report will be out in a few weeks and who knows what new info it will show,if any.I would bet there are quite a few people here who fly in these types of airshows and having discussions here might prevent another accident like this one from happening in the near future.

[Lynn Allen]

Anyone know how and where the other aircraft landed after the mid-air? Were they able to land at the same field or did they have to go somewhere else?

Must have been horrifying for those pilots who witnessed the crash and extremely difficult to recover and concentrate on landing.

What an awful awful thing to witness. Brings back the very same feelings as the Reno crash a few years ago. Every Warbird crash is horrific but these two really stand out for some reason. It’s probably because both were witnessed clearly by so many people.

Just awful

The Rose, Devil Dog, Diamond Lil and Gunfighter went to Lancaster. As far as I know Devil Dog is the only one who has departed.

[Randy Haskin]

There is an assumption by many right now that the airboss' plan was to geographically deconflict the two flights, and so far as I'm aware that's not an established fact yet.

Yeah, but the FAA, NTSB, Airboss, FSDO rep, and everyone in the briefing know. We won't be left wondering for long.

Of course they do.

Richard McSpadden, Dan Gryder, Juan Browne, et al, aren't part of that list.

[RyanShort1]

The Rose, Devil Dog, Diamond Lil and Gunfighter went to Lancaster. As far as I know Devil Dog is the only one who has departed.

I think all 6 remaining planes from the flight recovered there.
The CAF hangar where Diamond Lil would be headed to with the B-29 is full... an amazing amount of planes crammed in there, there are still other CAF planes stuck on the ramp at RBD, and I'm sure there's probably going to be a fleet-wide safety stand-down and review of procedures, etc.

[CAPFlyer]

Another question thats not been asked is how big was the airshow "box". Could this be a factor?, a smaller box cause confliction? Tighter turn's required? I don't remember how many years they've been having airshows at Dallas Executive but it seemed to work in the past?

I know this has been one of the biggest concerns about having any airshow at Redbird/Dallas Executive. The area around it is heavily built-up with a *LOT* of residential both north and west of the airport (off the other end of the runway from where the accident happened). There is also the problem of vertical space as the Class B floor is at 3000, meaning they really can't go "up" that far either, further constraining the box.

It became even more of an issue 6 years ago when a part of an airplane (I believe it was a landing gear door) participating in the show fell in a residential area next to the airport - https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2016/10 ... 477926139/

I know there was some "adjustment" of the flight paths after this to further attempt to avoid the residential areas, making it even more of an issue.

I know the CAF has been working diligently with all the relevant groups to make Wings Over Dallas as safe as possible and the pilots do everything they can, but I think this kind of thing was in the back of everyone's minds since the move was announced because there's just an "expectation" that there be an airshow because it is HQ, but the HQ was located based on the museum/education and accessibility, not because it had the best airspace. It was always going to be a compromise no matter what and it's the reason that "Big City" airshows are so rare anymore. The restrictions make it extremely difficult and it takes a lot of determination and work to make it happen safely. I applaud the CAF and everyone for doing everything they can, but unfortunately, I don't see a future for the airshow at HQ. I see it being moved to somewhere like McKinney, Mesquite, or even Lancaster if it goes forward.

[bluehawk15]

I have been in the CAF for 46 years now and I always thought we needed to have our "Homecoming" Airsho at CAF HQ. I was not aware, until I saw the video which had the flight paths drawn on an aerial shot of the field and surrounding areas, just how densely populated the area around the airport is now. I recall how long it took to financially recover after the PBY accident many years ago during the Harlingen show weekend. I wonder if this one will be as costlly? I shudder to imagine if the debris field had been a few hundred yards further than it was. Had it fallen in a neighborhood, it would have been even more tragic, and costly.

[p51]

I shudder to imagine if the debris field had been a few hundred yards further than it was. Had it fallen in a neighborhood, it would have been even more tragic, and costly.

I would assume we all shudder at such a possibility.
There have been several high-profile losses with WW2 aircraft over the years and in almost no case has one gone down onto bystanders or damaging private property in measurable way. Imagine the CAFs B-26 or HE-111 going down into a resident area (or God forbid, a school yard) in either of those incidents?
Think of all the urban sprawl around airports over the last few decades, it wouldn't be tough to imagine Texas Raiders and the P-63 going down onto that strip mall from where most of the accident video was shot.
Naturally, we all are relieved that this has yet to happen, but I really shudder at the idea of what that'll mean for all warbird operators if it does happen someday.

[Lon Moer]

I shudder to imagine if the debris field had been a few hundred yards further than it was. Had it fallen in a neighborhood, it would have been even more tragic, and costly.

I would assume we all shudder at such a possibility.
There have been several high-profile losses with WW2 aircraft over the years and in almost no case has one gone down onto bystanders or damaging private property in measurable way. Imagine the CAFs B-26 or HE-111 going down into a resident area (or God forbid, a school yard) in either of those incidents?
Think of all the urban sprawl around airports over the last few decades, it wouldn't be tough to imagine Texas Raiders and the P-63 going down onto that strip mall from where most of the accident video was shot.
Naturally, we all are relieved that this has yet to happen, but I really shudder at the idea of what that'll mean for all warbird operators if it does happen someday.

or crash into a birthday party at an ice cream shop.....


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Sacramento_Canadair_Sabre_accident

[Scott Rose]

There is also the problem of vertical space as the Class B floor is at 3000, meaning they really can't go "up" that far either, further constraining the box.

One of the things I had to study for my drone pilots license is air space and the Dallas area was used as an example. That is one amazingly crowded airspace and I'm amazed anybody can figure it out.