NAS Willow Grove Warbirds

[Waltz41]

I'm dissapointed as well. It's really ashame for those guys, especially the 111th A-10 guys. I absolutley am going to miss the daily A-10's flying over head....it's about all I ever get to see around my parts here.
On another note, I'm gonna try to get over to the museum near the end of the week if i can, so i'll ask around and see if i can get any info.

brian

[Jiggersfromsphilly]

The bulk of the planes are still on display . The Cutlass has been under tarps down the road and is just being left to the effects of the weather. There have been pictures of a F-4 Phantom being restored and painted, but nothing on the Cutlass.The whole place has seemed to lost its direction. Anybody know why it is in limbo?

[old iron]

jiggers wrote:

The bulk of the planes are still on display . The Cutlass has been under tarps down the road and is just being left to the effects of the weather. There have been pictures of a F-4 Phantom being restored and painted, but nothing on the Cutlass.The whole place has seemed to lost its direction. Anybody know why it is in limbo?

As I remember, the Jill and George were both transferred to NASM-Garber in 1984. This must surely have been done by Bob Mikesh. The George was then loaned to the Champlin Museum in Arizona for restoration and display there (Mikesh was a consultant in that restoration) and was subsequently returned to NASM for the 2003 opening at Udvar Hazy.

Those were the days: always something happening at NASM-Garber, restorations, acquisitions, loans, trades to improve the collection. You could see the wheels turning. Visitors to Garber were welcome, questions sent to NASM were promptly answered. I used to visit there every year or two, and at every visit there was "news" - aircraft that were being restored at Garber during the previous visit were finished with new restorations in progress, something was being packed/unpacked, I could watch things being moved while I was there. There was a cam so we could watch developments from afar.

Now: I recently saw a flickr photo with a 2017 date that showed the Lincoln-Standard in pretty much the same state of restoration as now. This, a wood-and-fabric aircraft, would have been a pretty quick restoration in the old days, and by that I mean the then-famous NASM restoration quality but done with the resources and priority to get-r-done so we can move on to the next. To get current photos of what is happening there now (the Shturmovik and DH-4 are at present next to "Flak Bait") you have to find images posted by tourists from the overlook. I do not think the Baker Restoration website has been updated in the last five years. And a visit to Garber seems IMPOSSIBLE, because staff is too busy (that is what I have been told on several inquiries).

I am sure they are plenty busy there, but there is little evidence provided to support that. By all appearances, most of the current work is being by docents. This point-of-view is frequently provided on WIX, by people who are much less sympathetic than I. Getting the Garber aircraft on view at UH should not be a 30-year plan.

[sandiego89]

....... And a visit to Garber seems IMPOSSIBLE, because staff is too busy (that is what I have been told on several inquiries).

I am sure they are plenty busy there, but there is little evidence provided to support that. By all appearances, most of the current work is being by docents. This point-of-view is frequently provided on WIX, by people who are much less sympathetic than I. Getting the Garber aircraft on view at UH should not be a 30-year plan.

I got to visit Garber on a cold winter day around 1992, and felt like I was walking into King Tuts tomb, with all of the treasures I had only seen in books. Enola Gay was there in pieces and they invited us to touch 4 sections of fuselage so they could ascertain which finish would hold up better. Moving experience. While many have made the move to UH, some of my favorites are still languishing at Garber, and space at UH seems to be getting tight.

I would love to see the Sageburner F-4, the Sea Dart and the Pogo especially.

I too wish there was more of impetus to bring them out, or allow enthusiasts to get back to Garber. Even if unrestored they should be brought out or allowed some type of access. The unrestored Sikorsky, P-38, me-163 and Black Widow at UH are good examples of having something on display is better than hidden from everyone. There is a certain quality to the "preserved" examples over fully restored. I stop into UH every few years, and Flak Bait progress is painfully slow, really just shuffled around a bit.

While I get resources are finite, the explanation of pausing things at Garber to focus on getting UH ready and then focusing on the Mall restoration (which did require quite a bit of work and movements) seem to be getting thin. Having a docent open up Garber a few specials days a year would not seem that difficult.

[Warbirdnerd]

Anyone have a list of what is still at Garber?

[old iron]

Anyone have a list of what is still at Garber?

The Garber list on Wikipedia (below) is surprisingly complete. This may be dated but to my knowledge - and I work fairly hard to keep up with these things - very little gets moved around these days. I would say that things there are probably very much as they were 15 years ago. A few things (Curtiss Helldiver, Sikorsky seaplane, Kyushu Shinden fuselage, Lippische DM-1, Nakajima Kikka, Curtiss-Wright Junior, Olmsted [1911-ish] and of course the He-219) have found their way to UH, but very few. As I have said before, I think quite a number could come over to be displayed with a good cleaning. U-H was supposed to originally be an "as is" display of the collection, but the glorious insides of the finished building seemed to mandate a museum more than a storage facility.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_in_the_Smithsonian_Institution

The problem is that I do not think anyone has been allowed inside for years, so no new photographs are available - I have seen nothing posted on Flickr.com out of Garber for at least 15 years, maybe 20.

Easily, the best available resource is listed immediately below. This is dated for sure, but provides photos of just about everything. And while not updated in maybe 20 years, I think it fair to say that nothing (at least full-sized) has been added to Garber since the 1990s. I have maintained a list of NASM additions/deletions since 2003 and the only additions that were not pretty much ready for display at UH were the B-25 and Akron gondola, and both of these are at the Ramsey Building (on Dulles grounds, not at Garber).

http://www.aviation-history.com/garber/vgarb.html

Another source that provides many photos, though nowhere near as comprehensive, is here:

[url]https://philcallihan.com/paul-e-garber-preservation-restoration-and-storage-facility/[url]

There is also a good list of Garber engines but I will have to look around for that one.

Kevin

[Pat Carry]

It will be 100's of years before all the planes @ Garber are restored.

[Pat Carry]

Anyone have a list of what is still at Garber?

The Garber list on Wikipedia (below) is surprisingly complete. This may be dated but to my knowledge - and I work fairly hard to keep up with these things - very little gets moved around these days. I would say that things there are probably very much as they were 15 years ago. A few things (Curtiss Helldiver, Sikorsky seaplane, Kyushu Shinden fuselage, Lippische DM-1, Nakajima Kikka, Curtiss-Wright Junior, Olmsted [1911-ish] and of course the He-219) have found their way to UH, but very few. As I have said before, I think quite a number could come over to be displayed with a good cleaning. U-H was supposed to originally be an "as is" display of the collection, but the glorious insides of the finished building seemed to mandate a museum more than a storage facility.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_in_the_Smithsonian_Institution

The problem is that I do not think anyone has been allowed inside for years, so no new photographs are available - I have seen nothing posted on Flickr.com out of Garber for at least 15 years, maybe 20.

Easily, the best available resource is listed immediately below. This is dated for sure, but provides photos of just about everything. And while not updated in maybe 20 years, I think it fair to say that nothing (at least full-sized) has been added to Garber since the 1990s. I have maintained a list of NASM additions/deletions since 2003 and the only additions that were not pretty much ready for display at UH were the B-25 and Akron gondola, and both of these are at the Ramsey Building (on Dulles grounds, not at Garber).

http://www.aviation-history.com/garber/vgarb.html

Another source that provides many photos, though nowhere near as comprehensive, is here:

[url]https://philcallihan.com/paul-e-garber-preservation-restoration-and-storage-facility/[url]

There is also a good list of Garber engines but I will have to look around for that one.

Kevin

In the "aircraft on loan" section, where are the FW 190 and the B-26 displayed today?

[Warbirdnerd]

Hey Pat,
The Fw-190 is on loan to NMUSAF and on display in Dayton.
The VB-26B is on loan to Warner Robins AFB

[Pat Carry]

Hey Pat,
The Fw-190 is on loan to NMUSAF and on display in Dayton.
The VB-26B is on loan to Warner Robins AFB

Thanks for the info!

[Pat Carry]

In my humble opinion, more of the planes in storage should be loaned out to museums who have the ability to restore them and then display them like the Ascender @ the Air Zoo.

[Pat Carry]

When does the NASM anticipate Flak Bait will go on display as a whole aircraft?

[old iron]

The Fw-190 is on loan to NMUSAF and on display in Dayton.
The VB-26B is on loan to Warner Robins AFB

My understanding is that the B-26 was deaccessed (gifted, not loaned). Would like to hear that corrected.

In my humble opinion, more of the planes in storage should be loaned out to museums who have the ability to restore them and then display them like the Ascender @ the Air Zoo.

My understanding is that the Ascender is only an external restoration. Also, there is the Vought "Flapjack" fully restored by Vought volunteers and on I think a ten-year loan to the Frontiers of Flight Museum in Dallas. (Yes, NASM should do more of this: a free rstoration to them, done well before they would ever get to it. Always an issue is whether a NASM-quality restoration can be done).

When does the NASM anticipate Flak Bait will go on display as a whole aircraft?

I think it will be on the near or other side of 2030. The object here is more preservation than restoration; preserving the old is always more time-consuming that replacing with new-built.

It will be 100's of years before all the planes @ Garber are restored.

No, it will be well less than that, once they come around to the old pace. I hope that will be after the Renovation is complete. That will empty out most of the current storage module (M1), with another maybe built by then (2025) or soon after; these cost about $50M each. I think the plan then is to start moving most of the Garber Collection over, and with that work will seriously begin on preservation and restoration of aircraft.

Anyone have a list of what is still at Garber?

Here is your list of NASM aircraft engines (all of them, as of 2010), enough to keep you busy for a long time.
http://www.enginehistory.org/Convention/2010/garber_artifacts.shtml

Kevin

[Pat Carry]

The Fw-190 is on loan to NMUSAF and on display in Dayton.
The VB-26B is on loan to Warner Robins AFB

My understanding is that the B-26 was deaccessed (gifted, not loaned). Would like to hear that corrected.

In my humble opinion, more of the planes in storage should be loaned out to museums who have the ability to restore them and then display them like the Ascender @ the Air Zoo.

My understanding is that the Ascender is only an external restoration. Also, there is the Vought "Flapjack" fully restored by Vought volunteers and on I think a ten-year loan to the Frontiers of Flight Museum in Dallas. (Yes, NASM should do more of this: a free rstoration to them, done well before they would ever get to it. Always an issue is whether a NASM-quality restoration can be done).

When does the NASM anticipate Flak Bait will go on display as a whole aircraft?

I think it will be on the near or other side of 2030. The object here is more preservation than restoration; preserving the old is always more time-consuming that replacing with new-built.

It will be 100's of years before all the planes @ Garber are restored.

No, it will be well less than that, once they come around to the old pace. I hope that will be after the Renovation is complete. That will empty out most of the current storage module (M1), with another maybe built by then (2025) or soon after; these cost about $50M each. I think the plan then is to start moving most of the Garber Collection over, and with that work will seriously begin on preservation and restoration of aircraft.

Anyone have a list of what is still at Garber?

Here is your list of NASM aircraft engines (all of them, as of 2010), enough to keep you busy for a long time.
http://www.enginehistory.org/Convention/2010/garber_artifacts.shtml

Kevin

Thanks Kevin. Dang, I wont be around long enough to see Flak Bait completed. Win some, you lose some I guess.