Corsair vs Zero, The Real kill ratio …

[lmritger]

I remember when Danial Ford's "Flying Tigers", which greatly reduced the exagerrated American claims in China, came out there was much beating of breasts about how this could not be true. I have gathered from my reading, and do not claim any particular expertise here, that Americans were particularly prone to optimistic claims, in both WWI and WW2. Perhaps it is our nature to be more biased by prospects of fame and media influences, not to mention the desk-bound unit-level offices wanting bragging rights over their equivalents from other units; we are by nature quite competitive in these ways.

The Germans, on the other hand, were surprisingly objective - An examination of Richtofen's 80 claims shows almost all of them to be valid, matched with lost Allied airplanes.

The massive claims of WW2 Luftwaffe pilots have come in for quite a bit of attention over the past 20+ years as well, and unsurprisingly, some have proven to be more reliable than others. For instance, I think the latest research has validated at least 12 of Hans Joachim Marseille's famous 17 kills on 1 Sept 1942, and I believe Sepp Wurmheller, Adolf "Addi" Glunz, Joachim Müncheberg, Klaus Mietusch and Josef "Pips" Priller were also equally fastidious about their claims... I've not heard any significant complaints about their numbers. But then you have guys like Erich Rudorffer and Erwin Sawallisch, who literally invented claims out of thin air... Sawallisch, the Staffelkapitän of 4./JG 27 in the Western Desert, was so egregiously bad about it that he was called out by his Gruppenkommandeur Gustav Rödel and apparently committed suicide; his aircraft crashed into the Mediterranean, but could not be attributed to enemy action.

On the Ostfront, there's been quite a bit of suspicion about Hartmann and Barkhorn's 300+ claims, although apparently both Rall (275) and Kittel (267) were as fastidious as their Western Front comrades... indeed, at least one researcher credits Kittel with the highest number of *confirmed* claims during the war.

I can't wait to read Claringbould's book- the vast majority of PTO works since 1945 have been told entirely from the Allied point of view, so having someone go through the Japanese records to match against US claims should make for very interesting reading.

Lynn

[JohnB]

There is no question that American pilots over claimed aircraft destroyed by error or by design. In some cases, credit was given for claims that were totally unverified for propaganda value. A prime example being the 8 kills by Boyd "Buzz'' Wagner in the Philippines and New Guinea. To my knowledge, none of them were confirmed. But, as in the case of Colin Kelly, the country needed a hero. Having said that, there's also no doubt that dubious claims were just as common in other.

In your zeal, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater....
Remember many U.S. claims were backed up by gun camera film...David McCampbell's unbelievable nine kills in one sortie during the Battle of Latte Gulf, among them.

Just because Kelly was credited with fictional successes, doesn't mean everyone was wrong all the time.

[gemmer]

I don't think I said or inferred that all American claims were wrong. But I stand by my assertion that early in the war, either by fabrication or error due to confusion during a fight, claims were at times greatly exaggerated.