Low and fast...and right over your head!!!!

[Michel Lemieux]

Low and fast...and right over your head!!!!

What do you think????? Safe or not?

https://www.facebook.com/Pourtouslesmordusdaviation/videos/821590901259327/

[AG pilot]

Not the safest flyby, but I would have it enjoyed it.

[Joe Scheil]

As they say...it’s all fun till someone loses an eye.....

Or all the planes get grounded because pilots can’t be trusted with them.


However, remember our part in all of this here on the WIX....we are no longer “innocent” the second we take a video like this and post it for the world to look at and comment on from the safety of the couch. That flight was a special moment for some people, and I am sure the pilot, a skilled display pilot assuredly, took his time during a private (seemingly non public) fly in to check his gauges, his airspace and his personal safety margins for the pass. I am sure he looked over the route carefully, and as a special gift to his friends, who knowledgeably may have all given their assent for the assumed risks they all were taking, made a special pass over them. Knowing that this was a potentially career ending pass for the pilot, nobody wanted to film or capture this special memory on video, and all simply wanted to watch and feel it themselves. Unfortunately a 13 year old kid films the thing and puts it on Zuckerburgs Faceplant site and the world starts to weigh in....was it dangerous, was it safe, was it a reasonable use of fossil fuels and lubricants considering the costs to the regime in Venezuela that is trying to make communism cool again?

Look, I get the sentiment. It’s fun or it isn’t and situational ethics and discussions won’t change what happened or protect people in the future from one of these gone wrong. When they happen they are tragic, and when they don’t they are breathtaking. But filming these things operating like this is like taking texts off a phone out of context. We don’t know the situation the people or the day. It may have been the pilots’ very best day ever. Posting that stuff can make it the worst. We all have to be considerate to the guys that fly, and thank them for the time and effort they put in to learn their craft.

Their displays can inspire others to reach for something better...
.....small people will always try to bring everyone down to their level.

As enthusiasts we have to pick a side.

[AG pilot]

As they say...it’s all fun till someone loses an eye.....

Or all the planes get grounded because pilots can’t be trusted with them.


However, remember our part in all of this here on the WIX....we are no longer “innocent” the second we take a video like this and post it for the world to look at and comment on from the safety of the couch. That flight was a special moment for some people, and I am sure the pilot, a skilled display pilot assuredly, took his time during a private (seemingly non public) fly in to check his gauges, his airspace and his personal safety margins for the pass. I am sure he looked over the route carefully, and as a special gift to his friends, who knowledgeably may have all given their assent for the assumed risks they all were taking, made a special pass over them. Knowing that this was a potentially career ending pass for the pilot, nobody wanted to film or capture this special memory on video, and all simply wanted to watch and feel it themselves. Unfortunately a 13 year old kid films the thing and puts it on Zuckerburgs Faceplant site and the world starts to weigh in....was it dangerous, was it safe, was it a reasonable use of fossil fuels and lubricants considering the costs to the regime in Venezuela that is trying to make communism cool again?

Look, I get the sentiment. It’s fun or it isn’t and situational ethics and discussions won’t change what happened or protect people in the future from one of these gone wrong. When they happen they are tragic, and when they don’t they are breathtaking. But filming these things operating like this is like taking texts off a phone out of context. We don’t know the situation the people or the day. It may have been the pilots’ very best day ever. Posting that stuff can make it the worst. We all have to be considerate to the guys that fly, and thank them for the time and effort they put in to learn their craft.

Their displays can inspire others to reach for something better...
.....small people will always try to bring everyone down to their level.

As enthusiasts we have to pick a side.

Very well said!!!!

[Michel Lemieux]

As they say...it’s all fun till someone loses an eye.....

Or all the planes get grounded because pilots can’t be trusted with them.

However, remember our part in all of this here on the WIX....we are no longer “innocent” the second we take a video like this and post it for the world to look at and comment on from the safety of the couch. That flight was a special moment for some people, and I am sure the pilot, a skilled display pilot assuredly, took his time during a private (seemingly non public) fly in to check his gauges, his airspace and his personal safety margins for the pass. I am sure he looked over the route carefully, and as a special gift to his friends, who knowledgeably may have all given their assent for the assumed risks they all were taking, made a special pass over them. Knowing that this was a potentially career ending pass for the pilot, nobody wanted to film or capture this special memory on video, and all simply wanted to watch and feel it themselves. Unfortunately a 13 year old kid films the thing and puts it on Zuckerburgs Faceplant site and the world starts to weigh in....was it dangerous, was it safe, was it a reasonable use of fossil fuels and lubricants considering the costs to the regime in Venezuela that is trying to make communism cool again?

Look, I get the sentiment. It’s fun or it isn’t and situational ethics and discussions won’t change what happened or protect people in the future from one of these gone wrong. When they happen they are tragic, and when they don’t they are breathtaking. But filming these things operating like this is like taking texts off a phone out of context. We don’t know the situation the people or the day. It may have been the pilots’ very best day ever. Posting that stuff can make it the worst. We all have to be considerate to the guys that fly, and thank them for the time and effort they put in to learn their craft.

Their displays can inspire others to reach for something better...
.....small people will always try to bring everyone down to their level.

As enthusiasts we have to pick a side.

Eloquently well said.

Hence me posting this for discussion. I am somewhat divided even with my own opinion.....exhilarated and while I would have loved to be there....still somewhat frightened….

We see posts and videos on warbirds incidents and accidents too often but yet, I am still thrilled the the sounds, smells and emotions they bring me.

It is no worst that watching the races just to see that fanstastic pass or overtake...or that fatal accident moment….
My 2 cents.

[bdk]

It is all a question of risk. The reason the FAA has such strict requirements for airshows is because they are trying to mitigate the risk of unexpected events, some much more likely than others. Generally you aren't allowed to fly low over a crowd and the energy in an aerobatic maneuver should not be directed towards the crowd (under specific limitations).

Aerobatics introduces a greater risk of structural failure and a greater risk of pilot error than a simple fly-by. Nonetheless, something like a bird strike could divert the pilot's attention during a fly-by, or the pilot could be lulled into performing an unplanned/unbriefed aerobatic maneuver.

As a patron of a small rural airshow/air display, how much risk are you expecting to expose your family to? As a warbird enthusiast you might be willing to accept a higher risk for the thrill of it. How much less thrilling would this experience be if the aircraft was displayed a few hundred feet towards the runway rather than right over the crowd?

[Mark Allen M]

Never a fan of that type of low flying. Like has been stated already, there's just as much a thrill to see a low pass not directly over people. "We all have to be considerate to the guys that fly, and thank them for the time and effort they put in to learn their craft." ... Of course we should to an extent, but there's also a flip side to that coin. Those guys that fly must also respect the folks who are there watching them learn their craft and their aircraft. 70+ year old piston engine high performance aircraft require extreme attention and dedication that is at a far higher level than a Cessna 172. There's very little room for error especially at such a low level.

There's no reason, (unless by accident or emergency) for pilots to fly that low directly over people. And Indeed correct that we, who know and respect all things "warbird", are no longer innocent. "discussions won’t change what happened or protect people in the future from one of these gone wrong". I have to respectfully disagree. If such incidents as this are not brought to light and discussed, especially in warbird related circles, they may tend to occur more often and that is not acceptable. One doesn't have to be a warbird owner, expert or authority to qualify to express concern or dismay at flying events that common sense would describe as far too risky or dangerous.

In this particular case, I'll stick with my thoughts that this was not a good idea if purposely done. Nothing personal against the pilot, but it's just too risky and the negative far out weights any positive.

I'll always pick the side of safety and common sense over a breathtaking risk. But that's just me.

[p51]

I disagree, having been vilified here (and accosted in person) for posting photos of a crummy landing that people denied ever happened (even though there was ample news stories later to support it had, which got conveniently ignored), as well as having the scars (both physical and psychological) from the effects of someone doing something stupid in an aircraft I was pax on many years ago in the military.
This mindset of "keep you mouth shut when someone does something odd with an airplane," is one of the reasons Bud Holland was able to crash a BUFF at Fairchild (and by most accounts, was going to try to roll the plane at an airshow the following weekend if he hadn't lawn-darted himself and crew) and almost kill some USAF photographers at Yakima Firing Center beforehand (almost smacked a ridge at reportedly less than ten feet AGL).
If, for example, I go to a gun range and do a William Tell re-enactment with someone with an apple on their head downrange, you'd want to call the range folks or maybe the cops, right?
And why? Because unsafe is unsafe. Frankly, if I did something that stupid, I'd want someone to get involved in some way!
In the Army, we had a saying on weapons ranges, that, "everyone is a range safety" as you can call a cease-fire for anything unsafe.
The minute you look the other way, you'll soon be looking at the smoke from the fire that followed the crash.
Going to do something a little questionable in an airplane? Then find a spot somewhere away from everyone or take up race cars on a track instead.
I have very little empathy for pilots who decide to do something questionable with an airplane around other and then gets butt-hurt when someone makes the world aware of it. Cemeteries are filled with people whose last words were (or who heard), "Don't worry, I know what I'm doing.."

[Michel Lemieux]

Nice civilized discussion so far!

Great comments

I do see that the video that I found by fluke rings close to many!

[phil65]

Not looking to get anybody in problem, but does anybody know where and when this was ?

Thanks,
Phil

[Michel Lemieux]

Nope... do not know. The video was embedded in a FB page for a local Quebec RC club.

[Michel Lemieux]

A low pass in a safe environment (if there is such a thing for the pilot and passengers) is fun to watch however.

Flying is inherently unsafe proposal by default....so is living...lol....

https://www.facebook.com/Pourtouslesmordusdaviation/videos/566722083412878/

[Joe Scheil]

So I decided to do a low pass over the internet...Ha Ha Ha. Yes I suppose the discussion had to go this way, but this was not really the intention of the post. To more accurately focus the point lets start with this one. Sir, I am not calling you specifically out, but pointing out the problems inherent with internet forums and their proximity fused bombs on all sides.

I disagree, having been vilified here (and accosted in person)

Ok, vilified HERE means the WIX, a place where both laypersons, aviation professionals and OWNERS post in FULL and NAKED view of the FAA, NTSB and other regulating bodies.

for posting photos of a crummy landing that people denied ever happened

While it is neat to post newsworthy items, I don't remember this post. As a guy who has been allowed to land a plane once or twice, I can say it can be the most exciting contact sport one can play. A bad landing happens from time to time, and "bad" is defined by the pilot based on his experience. Now as an instructor I was in a position many times to teach and work to improve other peoples landings with time honored methods and speech patterns, variable in tone and cadence to the situation presented. The best way to critique a landing is in private, preferably in the aircraft after engine shutdown. When the switches are thrown and the plane begins to wind down, that is the best time to share both sides of the story, pilot to check pilot, and talk about how it went, what can be improved, and what completion standards would be for a signoff.

It gets trickier if you are a check pilot watching it from the ground, as you know the single seat guy will be a bit charged up in the seat, so a brief walk and then a table debrief is perhaps best. Really good guys can be handled privately planeside. The key is private. Away from the any other ears so that the person who is listening is focused on the words of wisdom, and not anything else.

If you are a seasoned observer, enthusiast, fan, crash and rescue guy, or other vocation professional who believes he/she has seen something unsafe the guidelines would be very similar. Begin a private talk to understand and compare what one believe they have seen with the person who was there. If that fails, go to step two. Humble. Walk to another pilot there who may have seen it and ask them if they can help you. The list goes on. There is probably someone that is FAA on the field. They would be your final stop as a private non pilot citizen. Then there is no one else to ask. When you have dirty laundry to put on the line, the WIX board is perhaps the last place it should be.

(even though there was ample news stories later to support it had, which got conveniently ignored), as well as having the scars (both physical and psychological) from the effects of someone doing something stupid in an aircraft I was pax on many years ago in the military.

I am sorry you were hurt in an accident that was not your fault. Scars from those run very deep.

This mindset of "keep you mouth shut when someone does something odd with an airplane," is one of the reasons Bud Holland was able to crash a BUFF at Fairchild (and by most accounts, was going to try to roll the plane at an airshow the following weekend if he hadn't lawn-darted himself and crew) and almost kill some USAF photographers at Yakima Firing Center beforehand (almost smacked a ridge at reportedly less than ten feet AGL).
If, for example, I go to a gun range and do a William Tell re-enactment with someone with an apple on their head downrange, you'd want to call the range folks or maybe the cops, right?
And why? Because unsafe is unsafe. Frankly, if I did something that stupid, I'd want someone to get involved in some way!
In the Army, we had a saying on weapons ranges, that, "everyone is a range safety" as you can call a cease-fire for anything unsafe.
The minute you look the other way, you'll soon be looking at the smoke from the fire that followed the crash.

This is a neat point, but its not appropriate. This was a military crash, and was a causal case study for many regarding chain of command usage, fellow pilots complaints, inappropriate use of rank and personal hubris. In no post crash paper or analysis was there a statement that read "If the pilot had been outed on an internet forum by the general public, then perhaps this crash would have been avoided..." [b]

I have very little empathy for pilots who decide to do something questionable with an airplane around other and then gets butt-hurt when someone makes the world aware of it. Cemeteries are filled with people whose last words were (or who heard), "Don't worry, I know what I'm doing.."

Check. No Empathy for pilots. Understood. However that does not change the fact that the internet, or forums in general are not part of the safety process, or part of the process that creates safer skies. By posting a series of pictures or video on the net and commenting on it does not make one a safety official, or part of the process. You are not making the cemetery fill rate less fast with an internet post. [b]When the NTSB says "This could have been averted by an internet forum discussion" I will rescind this part of the post.

My post said nothing about looking the other way, that low passes were cool or that safety was inappropriate. The opening line was "Its all fun until someone loses an eye". That means I've been there when that has happened. More than once. True, this was a risk of a Four Million US Dollar aircraft for virtually no financial upside, and the owner may have already told the pilot that his time of being "checked out" in the airplane is over. But that was not the reason the post went up. It was because this is not the venue for posting such things as unsafe piloting, nor beginning a dialogue with the public. I would prefer the next low pass video that is unsafe would be prefaced by the words..."OK talked with the pilot, all the other pilots on the field, the FAA and the NTSB and they all tell me this is nothing to worry about...can I get an impartial viewpoint on this video I shot on Aug 18, 2xxx" ect...

When a video goes up on the net for any reason, it immediately links an individual and several lives together who own, operate, maintain, insure and sponsor and aircraft. Pilots know its a real problem to be caught doing something "stupid". However, should the wix become the pilot shaming board? If you see something unsafe on the net, and are part of the safety culture send the pilot an email. Get a reply back. I am sure you can post both your letter and his or her reply on the matter.

Respectfully...

Last edited by Joe Scheil on Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Michel Lemieux]

Joe & P51...can you please help us get a little perspective for those of us not knowing or in the dark????

And NOT.....wanting to lock an interesting thread plz....

Michel the uneducated....

[Joe Scheil]

Michael,

What specifically is not understood?