USS Lexington (CV-2) wreck found .. 4 March 2018 [revised]

[Mark Allen M]

I concur with Lynn as well Nathan. Good job my man

[JFS61]

These two photos are about as clear as you can find showing some of those TBD's, SBD's & F4F's.

There's also an F4F visible between the TBD's and the SBD's. With the intensity of the fire as seen in the newsreels, I doubt any aircraft parked amidships would have survived in the condition that F-5 appears to be in, but I could be wrong.

Will be interesting to see if maybe one day we can piece together just which planes are which.

[Taigh Ramey]

I wonder if that is a floatation bag from a TBD in the water off of the stern?

[lmritger]

These two photos are about as clear as you can find showing some of those TBD's, SBD's & F4F's.

There's also an F4F visible between the TBD's and the SBD's. With the intensity of the fire as seen in the newsreels, I doubt any aircraft parked amidships would have survived in the condition that F-5 appears to be in, but I could be wrong.

Will be interesting to see if maybe one day we can piece together just which planes are which.

I wonder if it's possible to find a super-high resolution copy of this pic somewhere? Something I just noticed while staring intently at the Wildcat... going from the aft edge of the deck forward, we have three or four TBDs, one TBD and a Wildcat in the next row, maybe two TBDs and one or two SBDs in the third row up, and possibly a TBD to port and two more SBDs in the fourth row, with nothing but SBDs visible forward of that. Another thought... looking at T-4 and T-9 on the bottom, I believe T-4 was flipped atop T-9 by the force of the explosion on the deck, and the two stayed stuck together on the trip down to the bottom. Also, we know that T-2 returned early from the Shokaku strike on 8 May with a bad magneto, so I assume she was in the hangar bay, and T-10 was shot down during that mission. That leaves 10 of the 12 TBDs, and we've found 8 thus far... two are missing, T-6 and T-7. And four of the ones we've found thus far have their tails severed in a similarly unusual fashion- which could possibly have happened if they were on the fantail when they went into the water. There is also a pretty stark dividing line where the fire destroyed aircraft before they came off the deck as evidenced by those SBDs found thus far, and the one F4F... I'm going to guess that T-6 and T-7 were spotted somewhere in that pack and got vaporized.

So based on what we've seen so far, I propose the TBDs may have been arranged thusly (with little hope of actually having this proven true):
____________________

T-6? T-7? (burned)
T-3? SBD SBD SBD (T-3 heavily damaged, possibly blown off the ship in the massive explosion aft)
T-9 T-4 SBD (T-4 blown on top of T-9)
T-11 F-5? (both aircraft relatively intact)
T-1 T-5 T-8 T-12 (all four have broken tails)

Again, this is only a guess, based on what I'm seeing. If we could find a REALLY high resolution version of this pic, though, maybe we could start figuring out which plane was spotted where.

Cheers,

Lynn

EDIT: Just found a good shot taken from aft of the carrier around 1500 on 8 May; the aircraft were 3 across, not 4 across. Also found another pic from around 1200 on 8 May, after the air group landed, showing at least one TBD just aft of the island. I am working on a revised deck spot theory and will post it shortly.

[dakoblue]

http://usnhistory.navylive.dodlive.mil/ ... -wildcats/

[Mark Allen M]

Dammit!!! Now I have to order large copies of these photos.

https://text-message.blogs.archives.gov ... otographs/

[Mark Allen M]

Action reports here

https://text-message.blogs.archives.gov ... i-the-log/

https://text-message.blogs.archives.gov ... le-report/

and this

https://text-message.blogs.archives.gov ... two-memos/

[Russ Matthews]

I think I have seen the numbers T-1, T-2, T-3, T-4, T-8, T-9, T-11 and T-12 on the Devastators that have been found

I'm not aware that T-2 has been spotted, but they've certainly found T-5 (which was left off this list). It seems we're now up to eight Lexington TBDs discovered from the original seven reported .. which has effectively tripled the world's population of known Devastator wrecks from four to twelve.

[Russ Matthews]

May I ask the source? [of the stunning archival Devastator photo collection]. Was it some kind of period internal Douglas company folder or a USN study?

Thanks for the responses, guys. Today I was also able to partly answer my own question when I realized I'd actually seen several of theses images before .. in a photocopied version of the TBD-1 Erection & Maintenance Manual. Apparently the scans shared here were made from the original prints of those shots and the resulting increase in resolution/detail is just gorgeous.

Many years ago I remember hearing stories about stacks of files, plans, and pics getting tossed when the old Douglas plant in Santa Monica closed down. I wonder if some far-sighted soul rescued these photos from that trash heap so that we can appreciate them today?

[Mark Allen M]

I wonder if some far-sighted soul rescued these photos from that trash heap so that we can appreciate them today?

That is indeed correct and I have been fortunate to have been able to purchase several of the originals. Not all of them, but many of them. Lynn's modeling buddy may have purchased some originals as well from the looks of it as I too have not seen them all. Glad they are available for all to see. As they should be.

Here's another Lexington shot rarely seen with a good view of some of the aircraft on the ocean floor. More to come in the coming days for those interested.

[Mark Allen M]

I like the rare shots



and this shot is another special one.


Not sure where or what year though

[Russ Matthews]

Can someone say how many crew for TBD? They seem to refer to 'assistant pilot' (?) and bombadier, and it's almost as if a third guy was in the belly or something, given what appears to be a sighting window in the belly? with it's own miniature bomb doors? (did I see correctly??).

It depends on the mission and (as JFS61 described) what point in the war we're talking about.

Despite the "torpedo plane" designation, Devastators could also serve as high(er) altitude level bombers. This tactic was used with some success against stationary targets early on .. most notably by the Japanese (it was a B5N "Kate" which dropped the 500kg armor piercing bomb that doomed the Arizona).

In the TBD-1, the middle of three crew positions was for the assistant pilot/bombardier. There was a set of basic flight controls, but perhaps the most unusual feature was a kind of tunnel running underneath the seat and forward below the pilot. On a level bomb run, the bombardier would drop down and lay flat with nothing standing between his favorite vital organs and the enemy gunners save for a thin sheet of aluminum! A set of doors in the nose just aft of the engine would open, not to expose an internal bomb bay (the bombs were carried externally), but to allow an unobstructed view for the Norden bombsight.

Using the photos Mark kindly provided, you can start to get a sense for it ...



A wild shot looking down between the pilot's feet (note the rudder pedals) to the open bombardier position and sighting window below. The shock mounts for the Norden bombsight can be seen on the lower left center of frame.




The open bombsight doors seen from outside showing their placement between the engine and the leading edge of the wing.




Norden bombsight installed.




1000 lb bomb in place.




Two 500 lb bombs loaded.

About 14 years ago, I was fortunate to interview two of the three men who crewed BuNo 0298 (5-T-7) when it ditched at Jaluit on 1 February, 1942. Radioman/gunner RM1c James "Ace" Dalzell described how bomardier ACMM Charles Fosha detached the Norden bombsight which they then threw over the side while still in flight, deep-sixing it in the ocean where the Japanese could never recover it. Later, as a POW, Fosha was interrogated for what he knew about the still top-secret instrument, but he brazenly (and successfully) bluffed it out, saying "I'm just an enlisted man, they don't tell me about that stuff!"

Also couldn't quite catch where the forward firing machine gun sticks out.

The single fixed forward firing .30 caliber machine gun was mounted on the right side, about midway down the fuselage.

Again, the photos Mark posted give us just what we need to illustrate the point.



With access panels removed we can see the gun as mounted (with the barrel and cooling jacket just above the carburetor air intake .. and the receiver off to the left).




Look at the ring cowl to the left (almost even with the hub) and you'll see the round opening where the fixed forward gun fires through the propeller arc.

[lmritger]

And a few TBDs received a .50 in the nose instead of a .30, but the weight of the ammo threw off the weight and balance so much that they reverted back to .30s by the time the war started. I haven't found ALL of them yet, but a good deal of them seem to have been in VT-6. The identification key is a huge bulge in the gun bay door to cover the feed chute... shades of the much later Bf 109G-6!

Lynn

[Robert61267]

Long time lurker, first time poster, so please be gentle...

The position of the birds on the Lex’s deck actually makes perfect sense. Given the length of the takeoff runs needed, the ready rooms of the various squadrons and aircraft types usually corresponded to the length and position of the flight deck needed to get airborne. The fighters were placed forward, so in an average deck load strike you’ll see them usually parked forward as the lightest and easiest to launch planes needing the least deck to get airborne. That’s also where their ready rooms typically were in the gallery deck. Then came the somewhat heavier dive and scout bombers needing more of a deck run amidships, where their ready rooms were either in the gallery deck on in the island depending upon era and ship class. Finally, the the very heavy torpedo bombers last needing the longest deck run were spotted near the stern round down, their ready rooms usually being aftmost, again their ready rooms aft.

This corresponds with how the Lex’s last strike was parked before the explosions which doomed her, and why we are seeing relatively pristine TBDs and that one F4F, and fire and smoke damaged SBDs. Since the fires were heaviest amidships where the SBDs were, that’s where the most airplane damage occurred. I would tend to think that there are more F4Fs and SBDs in various conditions in the debris field that have not been identified yet or have been tentatively but are awaiting photographic confirmation. Whatever was on deck when she sank forward and aft is likely in halfway decent condition. Whatever was amidships, not so much.

You'll always find exceptions to this rule, but in general that was the case. The launch order at Midway, for example, where the F4F s were launched first, the SBDs second and the TBDs last supports this concept, with photos of Enterprise's morning strike and descriptions of the launch order as highly suggestive (http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020623.jpg). Those photos of the Lady Lex on fire also show this arrangement, the position of the ready rooms dictating the deck spotting.

Bob

[Jim MacDonald]

I don't think that the poor ole Devastator has been shown this much love in decades.

Here are the rest of the planes I believe went down with the Lex.

3978 F4F-3 VF-2
3979 F4F-3 VF-2
3981 F4F-3 VF-2
3982 F4F-3 VF-2
3986 F4F-3 VF-2
3987 F4F-3 VF-2
3993 F4F-3 VF-2
4003 F4F-3 VF-2
4005 F4F-3 VF-2

2104 SBD-2 VB-2 B-2
2113 SBD-2 VB-2 B-14
2115 SBD-2 VB-2 B-3
2116 SBD-2 VB-2 B-11
2121 SBD-2 VB-2 B-10
2127 SBD-2 VB-2 B-8
2143 SBD-2 VB-2 B-12
2157 SBD-2 VB-2 B-17
2163 SBD-2 VB-2 B-7
2176 SBD-2 VB-2 B-9
2186 SBD-2 VB-2 B-15
4655 SBD-3 VB-2 B-18

4534 SBD-3 VS-2
4537 SBD-3 VS-2
4641 SBD-3 VS-2

Sorry if they're hard to read. I took them from an excel spreadsheet & the columns don't display here the way I want them to.

Mac