Warbird Information Exchange

A bit of confusion?. Below I've posted a couple of links, which if I understand it correctly, state these ETF Mustangs were used for Naval Carrier tests? WIX's John Terrell posted the following at the bottom of the first link. I'd tend to believe John's explanation because of his vast knowledge of Mustangs. Maybe John will chime in and re-explain the big picture as I've not been able to dig anything else worthwhile up yet.

"There is also some confusion I believe over the name of the aircraft. Some resources call the Naval-modified P-51D an "ETF-51D", but this isn't correct. The aircraft never had a change of name while it was in the hands of the Navy (not even a BuNo assigned to it), and if it had, it wouldn't have been in that form, for a North American product in U.S. Navy hands would have had a "J" in the title. The term "ETF-51D" came later, in the post-war years, with the NACA operated F-51D's. "ET" was added to the front of the title, meaning "Extended Tail", as NACA added taller tail fin caps to their F-51D's (which Cavalier later copied and used in their Mustang conversions). There is the possibility that this particular airframe, 44-14017, was handed over to the NACA after the carrier trials, and later became an "ETF-51D" in the hands of the NACA."

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthr ... horse-quot

http://mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/naval/naval.htm

Photo states: "The one and only ETF-51D-25-NA, 44-84944, built with an 'H' tail that was used for Mach tests as NACA 125"

J Baugher states: "84944 assigned to Kelly Field, TX. Assigned to NACA Langley Memorial Aeronautical Laboratory, later as NACA Langley Research Center, Langley Field, VA Sep 21, 1945 to Jun 5, 1952. Registered as NACA 129. Assigned to USAF, Mobile, AL"

The one and only ETF-51D-25-NA, 44-84944, built with an 'H' tail that was used for Mach tests as NACA 125 by Central Repository for Aviation Photos, on Flickr

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Here's a few of the only other NACA Mustangs I'm aware of.

TF-51D NACA 148 by Central Repository for Aviation Photos, on Flickr
NACA 148

NACA108 by Central Repository for Aviation Photos, on Flickr
NACA 108

And below this is BuNo 44-14017 with a tail hook.

414017 by Central Repository for Aviation Photos, on Flickr

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Hey Mark,

Just to expand a bit further from my comment of old which you've quoted in your first post...I was able to confirm that the P-51D-5-NA 44-14017 was handed over to the NACA following the November 1944 carrier trials, and it became NACA 102. The "ETF-51D" term applied to the NACA Mustangs when they re-entered USAF inventory with the Air Guard in the early 50's. The often-quoted Gaëtan Marie article about the Naval Mustangs is incorrect in stating that the Navy re-named/changed the terminology of 44-14017 to anything other than P-51D. At the time, there was no such thing as an F-51D, a TF-51D, or an ETF-51D, all of which was post-1947 era USAF terminology, and the furthest thing from how the Navy came up with the terminology for their aircraft - had the Navy actually re-named the aircraft (which would also have to mean that it would have entered their service with a BuNo, which it never did), it would have been the aircraft called an FJ-1.

Contrary to the photo description provided in the first post, 44-84944 (NACA 125) was just one of a good number of NACA/USAF "ETF-51D's". The taller tail, which was only made taller by installing a taller cap at the top of the stabilizer, is different than an H tail.

There are three P-51D's flying today that were just a few of the several used by the NACA - those being David Lindsay's P-51D 44-13257 (NACA 108), Steve Coutches' P-51D 44-84864 (NACA 126), and Bill Allmon's P-51D 44-84900 (NACA 127) - all three of these still have their NACA taller tail fin caps. The Whittington's P-51H is also a former NACA Mustang (NACA 130), and the XP-82 and the F-82E both under restoration to fly were also both used by the NACA (Pat Harker's F-82E will be painted in its NACA markings when completed).

Good stuff John, thx kindly as always.
Tell ya! sometimes I wonder just how "wonderful the big ole www really is. Seems to be more 'disinformation' floating around than the real truth and folks who claim to be historians, authors, experts etc. haven't a problem documenting it as whatever sounds about right. You really have to dig deep to come up with accurate information sometimes. Can be a bit hard to learn anything accurately. Oh well.

Here's a few more photos I've found over the years.

LMAL_46077 by Central Repository for Aviation Photos, on Flickr

LAL_47788 by Central Repository for Aviation Photos, on Flickr
This one looks to be a P(F)-51H

LAL_96951 by Central Repository for Aviation Photos, on Flickr

LAL-75010 by Central Repository for Aviation Photos, on Flickr

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“Knowing what’s right, doesn’t mean much unless you do what’s right.”

The last photo in your second post, featuring 44-14017, the one P-51D borrowed by the Navy for the carrier trials, I have never seen before and is absolutely superb, Mark! It's the clearest view I've ever seen of the tail hook that was installed. In that photo you can clearly see the pendant-type catapult hook below the firewall and the holdback bar/loop between the base of the tail and the base of the rudder, which was used for the catapult launch system aboard the carrier (and as tested from land). Bob Elder, the highly experienced Naval test pilot with the SEU (Ship Experimental Unit), made 150 land-based arrested landings and an untold number of land-based catapult launches with the aircraft before moving out to sea. These land-based trials were done at Mustin Field NAS, which unfortunately isn't around any more. Even before that, they started by just taxiing over the arrestor wires, laid out at Mustin Field, to see how their tail hook design(s) faired, before moving forward and doing actual landings. On November 15, 1944, Bob Elder made 4 landings and 4 deck-run takeoffs from the USS Shangri-La, near the Virginia Capes, all of which were completely successful - a total of 25 landings and takeoffs were made on the Shangri-La in all before the trials were completed. At this same time, the Ship Experimental Unit that was charged with making the P-51 carrier ready was also doing similar trials with a B-25H and an early F7F Tigercat.

The aircraft in the first photo of your last post (NACA 102) is the very same aircraft as 44-14017 used in the carrier trials. 44-14017/NACA 102 became known as an ETF-51D after its time with the NACA was completed and it re-entered service with the USAF. It was reportedly damaged beyond repair in a landing accident on December 10, 1953, when based at Mitchel AFB in New York with the 2500th Air Base Group.

ETF-51D FF-900

ETF-51D FF-900 by Central Repository for Aviation Photos, on Flickr

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“Knowing what’s right, doesn’t mean much unless you do what’s right.”

I helped take Bill Allmonds P51 off the post at the main gate of PANG on Pgh Inter Airport a number of years ago. We took allot of stuff of before the main lift. All the tail the prop all eng cowel made a lift sling per AF.manual. Got a truck crane lifted the fus off the wing then onto flat bed truck. Then whole wing on to another truck and moved it to AH hanger on BVI airport where it sat in pices for about a year when David Tallichet wemt chapter 11 with his rest biss and as per judge sold some of his airplane which is how Bill got it. Bill seemed like ok kind of guy what with many in hanger all little pissed bout loosing the airplane. But anyway there was this one who guy always.claimed to be an expert on airplane history. Who would never do a thing around the hanger not even drive a broom. But would try to impress all with what he thought he knew. So being the twit i am i went all over that airplane with a flashlight looking for what might be left of the cat and tail hook assy cause this guy this.airplane was used for the carrier test which no way was it true which i told and the only.answer i got from him was a dirty look. But what was there was the bumps on the top of the wings from the NACA tests. So im wondering if Bills airplane was loaned to they and if it was what did the navy use it for.

No, Bill's Mustang was never used by the Navy. It is a very late Dallas-produced D that was built too late to ever have any chance of seeing action in WWII and was provided to the NACA fresh from the factory. There are a number of NASA/government photos that show the aircraft factory new upon acceptance by the NACA. It was one of the last D-models that went to the NACA, becoming NACA 127. By comparison, the P-51D-5-NA 44-14017, the one and only P-51D ever used by the Navy (simply borrowed from the USAAF for a few months), was sent to the NACA following the carrier trials in the fall of '44 and became NACA 102 - I'll have to re-check, but I believe it was the first D that the NACA got its hands on - David Lindsay's Cavalier Mustang, by comparison, was an even earlier production P-51D-5-NA and it was numbered NACA 108 by the time it ended up with the NACA.

When the NACA was finished with their P-51D's, they ended up being provided back to the USAF, becoming designated as ETF-51D's, serving with various State-side units. 44-14017 (NACA 102), as I mentioned in a previous post, was damaged in a landing accident when based with a USAF unit in New York in late 1953, and was later scrapped. Bill's Mustang, NACA 127, served with a USAF Reserve unit in Pennsylvania, as I recall, until its eventual retirement and put on outdoor display.

There has been a lot of confusion over the years simply because of the misinformation about the "ETF-51D" designation - especially the thinking that the term only applied to one particular aircraft. 44-14017, the D borrowed by the Navy, of course shows up labeled as an "ETF-51D" in records from its USAF time in the early 50's, following its time with the NACA, but so do all of the other former NACA P-51D's in USAF inventory in the 50's, of which there were several, such as Bill Allmon's Mustang. As far as I can tell, the only reason why Bill Allmon's NACA 127 Mustang was thought to have been used by the Navy is because of its 1950's records calling it an ETF-51D, just as 44-14017 does, and the wrongly interpreted thinking that this term came from the Navy.

late at night...excuse the rambling

Interesting pictures, as far as I understand however the ETF-51D does not mean extended tail, as there were other Mustangs that were designated this way that did not have the extension. This designation was applied to aircraft that were “Exempt” from technical orders issued on the Mustang that were issued from the USAF Maintenence Support system. The F-51 designation was applied to Mustangs after 1947 when the plane was redesignated from P to F when the USAF came into existence. It is impossible for the pre 1947 nomenclature to exist. in any case and there is some internet “research” that the the Navy (never issued a Bu number) Mustang that Bob Elder flew off the carrier “44-14017” was an ETF-51D. The plane was flown off carriers in 1944 I believe, November, and there was no F-51 for another three years or so. However that Mustang, and its modifications would have made it exempt from technical orders, as it was modified outside the standard for P-51D aircraft. However there was no designation for that at the time.

It’s also really nice to see the tall tail that so many call the Cavalier tail on NAA Mustangs as well. The vertical tail extension was first tested on the D as the new H model was directionally unstable, and a variety of tail extensions were tried. The prototype H has a short pre production vertical, and an early NAA P-51D-5NA I believe got the first extended tail for flight testing during the 1945 time frame. There is a photograph that shows all three development aircraft in a line at Inglewood during 45.

Thank you Joe - since the time of my initial research into the subject five years ago, I came to realize that what I had been reading about with regard to the "ET" in "ETF-51D" as meaning "Extend Tail" was wrong too, but I never placed where that "E" came from. Of course I could acknowledge that there were tons of stock single seat Mustangs based State-side that were designated as "TF-51D", and that the "E" was the only difference in the designation applied to all of the former NACA Mustangs in post-NACA USAF assignments. Every ETF-51D designated Mustang I have come across in period records are former NACA examples, so I would be interested to see/know of any others that weren't used by the NACA but still got the "E" added.

Here is a photo of 44-13253, the first production P-51D, which was retained by NAA at Inglewood and shows the extended tail fin cap added (also of note is the all-metal rudder and early D/K dorsal fin fillet, added by this later point in time).




Here is a photo of 44-13257, just the fifth production P-51D, shown shortly after acceptance by the NACA at Langley with the extended tail fin cap - which probably/as far as I know had already been installed back at Inglewood with NAA - note the spinner is painted, which was common to Mustangs retained by NAA for test purposes. This aircraft became NACA 108 and later went back to the USAF as ETF-51D 44-13257. It was sold surplus in '57 and a decade later became the Cavalier F-51D Mk.II prototype (and for which the taller tail fin cap design was copied/reproduced on other Cavalier-modified Mustangs). It of course remains flying today with the Lindsay family, registered N51DL.




Here are a couple photos of Bill Allmon's P-51D NACA 127 shortly after arriving at Langley with the NACA and prior to having the extended tail fin cap added.






Here is another photo (to go with those posted by Mark) of 44-14017 NACA 102, the one and only P-51D that had previously been borrowed by the Navy in the fall of '44 for carrier trials. In this photo you can still see a few hints of the modifications/additions left-over from the tail hook installation, such as the unique cutout in the base of the rudder, which had been done in '44 to make room for the catapult holdback bar mounted at the base of the tail. This aircraft appears to have been written off after a landing accident in December 1953, when operating with a USAF unit in New York. (Note the Bell X-1 style cross section model mounted to the wing for testing.)

Ok, so the second picture in Mark's third post is and H model right? Interesting in that there is no a/c id number visible.

Yes it's a P/F-51H: note the straight wing leading edge.

Funny about these test aircraft: often folks say, "This is THE EF-xx" etc, as though the designation refers to a particular, unique variant. Similarly with the lesser-used J-prefix (JF- etc): as mentioned above these prefixes covered exemption from standard TO's (E-prefix) or just temporary test (J-prefix). Later, N was also used. I think (circa 1962?), the E prefix changed to denote Electronic Warfare and I think that's when N (NF- etc) came into being.

Hello to all. I'm Bertrand Brown aka Gaëtan Marie. I just discovered this thread and its interesting information. I'd never seen the large photo of 44-14017, which is very interesting and of superb quality.

For what it's worth, I wrote up the quoted article years ago, based on various incomplete sources I had found on the topic. I thought it was an interesting subject and decided to basically write a summary of what I'd found out since none of these sources gave a complete account of the experiment. In no case should it be considered as authoritative or definitive as it is not entirely based on primary sources. It has been corrected a couple of times already, notably thanks to valuable input from Edwin Page and Tommy Thomason.

Obviously, it could use some more editing and correcting, and I'm open to any suggestions or criticism regarding it. I'm afraid it's so often quoted only because it's the most complete write-up on the subject.

In addition, the photo will enable me to correct the profile I made, as there are several visible differences between my profile and the photo presented here. At first glance, I need to remove the gunsight, correct the tailhook, bubble canopy shape and wingtip light as well as add the catapult hooks and radio antenna cable. There are also a few other minor corrections that are needed.

Let me know what you think and if you believe any other points should be modified or corrected. I don't have much free time, but I feel it would be preferable to make some corrections to the article so I'll try to make time for it ASAP and correct it. At the very least, I'll make a footnote about the ETF-51D designation question.

@Mark Allen M: Do you know whether the photo a US Navy or US Federal Gvt photo which I can use to illustrate the article?

Best regards,

Bertrand Brown

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