Spitfire XIX bent in France

[Lynn Allen]

One for Dudley, is it possible that he was full of fuel or carrying a lot and what looks like a wet or moist turf as it seems to sit low? Maybe just thick grass, but that would give him a disadvantage on his takeoff roll, like a contaminated runway we also see in the sim at recurrent.

Lynn

Really hard to say. My understanding is that the 19 carries a large fuel load but I would be surprised if it was being flown with full tanks; possible of course.
This one is really strange. Looked to me like he had left rudder applied initially which would be right for a normal Griffon Spit but that tail came up hard and way too soon. The rudder was reversed during the nose over which could easily have been a reactive act.
There could have been a rut in play as well as he seemed to catch the prop prior to the violent swing.
All in all it's really hard to pin it down other to say that there seemed to be a tremendous amount of boost early on bringing that tail up. From that moment on the physics reacted violently with the forces in play possibly aided by parts of the aircraft and the prop making contact with the ground.
It will be interesting to learn what HE says happened.
Dudley Henriques

Thank you, what about the trim not being set right? it would help the nose come up way to easily. It just look right as he started his roll, everything went wrong when he brought the power up.

[dhenriques]

One for Dudley, is it possible that he was full of fuel or carrying a lot and what looks like a wet or moist turf as it seems to sit low? Maybe just thick grass, but that would give him a disadvantage on his takeoff roll, like a contaminated runway we also see in the sim at recurrent.

Lynn

Really hard to say. My understanding is that the 19 carries a large fuel load but I would be surprised if it was being flown with full tanks; possible of course.
This one is really strange. Looked to me like he had left rudder applied initially which would be right for a normal Griffon Spit but that tail came up hard and way too soon. The rudder was reversed during the nose over which could easily have been a reactive act.
There could have been a rut in play as well as he seemed to catch the prop prior to the violent swing.
All in all it's really hard to pin it down other to say that there seemed to be a tremendous amount of boost early on bringing that tail up. From that moment on the physics reacted violently with the forces in play possibly aided by parts of the aircraft and the prop making contact with the ground.
It will be interesting to learn what HE says happened.
Dudley Henriques

Thank you, what about the trim not being set right? it would help the nose come up way to easily. It just look right as he started his roll, everything went wrong when he brought the power up.

Judging from the images I see a very slight nose down pitch trim on the elevators. I really wouldn't be looking for trim as a culprit in this. Normal pitch input from the stick should have over ridden the trim in any event were it used for that purpose.
I'm really at a loss to come to any conclusions on this at this point. I'm not seeing anything control wise during the crash sequence that explains the sudden rising of the tail other than it being allowed to happen.
I'm inclined to learn more about the pilot's time in type and to listen to his explanation for what happened and why.
Sometimes these things have a way of being something completely different than what almost certainly appears to be the cause.
One thing is certain however. That Spit took a real hit internally. The forces involved were horrific on the engine and the air-frame. If this bird flies again it'll be a long costly process to achieve a state of flight readiness.
Dudley Henriques

[Christer]

Looked to me like he had left rudder applied initially which would be right for a normal Griffon Spit but that tail came up hard and way too soon. The rudder was reversed during the nose over which could easily have been a reactive act.

Don't you think that the propeller digging into the grass would induce a yaw/swing to the left and reversing the rudder input is to counteract that movement?

[happymeal]

The Spitfire was carrying full fuel load as it was taking off to return to its home base. Again, this was not an airshow. The Spitfire (and Sea Fury) just visited alocal open day.

[dhenriques]

Looked to me like he had left rudder applied initially which would be right for a normal Griffon Spit but that tail came up hard and way too soon. The rudder was reversed during the nose over which could easily have been a reactive act.

Don't you think that the propeller digging into the grass would induce a yaw/swing to the left and reversing the rudder input is to counteract that movement?

Yes. I see that as a distinct possibility. Once uncommanded and unexpected forces develop in a crash sequence, instant and involuntary reflex action by a pilot on controls is always a consideration.
Dudley Henriques

[Christer]

I checked the video again and a fraction of a moment after the propeller hit the grass, rudder input went from left to right.

[mike furline]

Okay one thing that I noticed but no-one has commented on is the two in the gyrocopter that taxi past the crowd while another pilot is trapped in his crashed plane. What could they have been thinking?

The gyrocopter had just landed and was taxiing back to the ramp.

[PeterA]

Note the torque reaction on the starboard gear.

Note the compression of the tyre...or is it ploughing a track until finally the physics take over?

It is said that it is an airfield that requires care in wet conditions.

PeterA

[CAPFlyer]

Got word from another forum that apparently a bystander did suffer a broken arm due to a debris impact, but no further information than that.

[CH2Tdriver]

Okay one thing that I noticed but no-one has commented on is the two in the gyrocopter that taxi past the crowd while another pilot is trapped in his crashed plane. What could they have been thinking?

Jeez, I don't know, maybe the airports closed and I'm not going anywhere so I'm going to taxi out of the way back to parking????

The what are they thinking moment is all those idiots running out on the field to the wreck! What to gawk? The plane is surrounded by green and orange vests. There are a few trying to hold back the crowd. At 4:36 a guy in a striped shirt and his kid try to run out and are stopped. Like what are they going to do? 20 seconds later everyone starts running past the guy who makes a vain attempt to stop them. And who is in the crowd? The same guy and his kid. I always wondered why at airshows when there is an incident you here the announcer "Everyone please stay where you are!" Now I know.

It reminds me of that horrible scene in the Great Waldo Pepper and Pepper's somewhat justified reaction.

[Christer]

The Spitfire was carrying full fuel load ...

What is the definition of "full fuel load" today? Fuselage tanks only? Are the interspar tanks installed as well and even the leading edge tanks made operational?

[DoraNineFan]

[

Jeez, I don't know, maybe the airports closed and I'm not going anywhere so I'm going to taxi out of the way back to parking????

The what are they thinking moment is all those idiots running out on the field to the wreck! What to gawk? The plane is surrounded by green and orange vests. There are a few trying to hold back the crowd. At 4:36 a guy in a striped shirt and his kid try to run out and are stopped. Like what are they going to do? 20 seconds later everyone starts running past the guy who makes a vain attempt to stop them. And who is in the crowd? The same guy and his kid. I always wondered why at airshows when there is an incident you here the announcer "Everyone please stay where you are!" Now I know.

It reminds me of that horrible scene in the Great Waldo Pepper and Pepper's somewhat justified reaction.

In the video I saw, one marshal crawls down to check on the pilot. Then I saw another marshal gesturing to the spectators to come and help lift the plane since no emergency personnel were present.

[Red Tail]

Working off the premise that the MK 19 is similar to the MK 14 in weight and dimension (Which they appear to be) I can offer the following based on non-flying experience with the MK 14:

a) It’s a fairly heavy airplane for its physical size (Densely packed).
b) The diameter of the main landing gear tires is fairly small.
c) It has a relatively small vertical fin and rudder.
d) It has a very powerful engine.
e) Pilots I know who fly the MK 14 tell me throttle advance at take-off must be handled very judiciously -gradual and reserved-.
f) Holding the tail down until sufficient rudder authority is available is highly preferred.
g) It has a relatively high wing loading requiring a longer, higher speed take-off roll.
Observed from the video’s and still photos:
a) The dirt overturned on the runway during the crash appears to be evenly moist and soft compared to hardpacked and dry.
b) The aircraft visible in the background appear to be small aircraft.

I’m not aware of the field length but considering it’s grass, my intuition tells me it’s likely on the shorter side.

When pieced together I come up with:
The softer ground required more throttle to get the aircraft rolling. The higher throttle setting brought the tail up early resulting in a loss of directional control (Torque control). The higher rolling resistance of the small mains on the sod (Similar to applying the brakes) exacerbated the tail lift. If the field was indeed short, that too could have played a role in all control set decision making (Airframe and engine), possibly psychological as well.

As Dudley said, it will be interesting to hear what the pilot has to say if/when he speaks publicly or the official reports are finally released. In any case, I’m glad the pilot is OK…and for what it’s worth, I agree with Dudley again, that is one badly bent up airframe that will most likely need a complete ground up rebuild. The good part is, there is a lot of airplane left to work with there.

John

[CoastieJohn]

[

Jeez, I don't know, maybe the airports closed and I'm not going anywhere so I'm going to taxi out of the way back to parking????

The what are they thinking moment is all those idiots running out on the field to the wreck! What to gawk? The plane is surrounded by green and orange vests. There are a few trying to hold back the crowd. At 4:36 a guy in a striped shirt and his kid try to run out and are stopped. Like what are they going to do? 20 seconds later everyone starts running past the guy who makes a vain attempt to stop them. And who is in the crowd? The same guy and his kid. I always wondered why at airshows when there is an incident you here the announcer "Everyone please stay where you are!" Now I know.

It reminds me of that horrible scene in the Great Waldo Pepper and Pepper's somewhat justified reaction.

In the video I saw, one marshal crawls down to check on the pilot. Then I saw another marshal gesturing to the spectators to come and help lift the plane since no emergency personnel were present.

Concur....at approx the 4:50 mark you can see one of the individuals in a green safety vest near the aircraft motion towards the crowd waiving his arms. I'm speculating that was an attempt to get assistance because right after that you see multiple individuals from the stands running to the aircraft. I'm thinking the guy that was trying to stop the crowd did not see his partner behind him near the aircraft signal for assistance. An understandable moment of initial confusion I suppose given the nature of what just happened.

[mustanglover]

Okay one thing that I noticed but no-one has commented on is the two in the gyrocopter that taxi past the crowd while another pilot is trapped in his crashed plane. What could they have been thinking?

Jeez, I don't know, maybe the airports closed and I'm not going anywhere so I'm going to taxi out of the way back to parking????

The what are they thinking moment is all those idiots running out on the field to the wreck! What to gawk? The plane is surrounded by green and orange vests. There are a few trying to hold back the crowd. At 4:36 a guy in a striped shirt and his kid try to run out and are stopped. Like what are they going to do? 20 seconds later everyone starts running past the guy who makes a vain attempt to stop them. And who is in the crowd? The same guy and his kid. I always wondered why at airshows when there is an incident you here the announcer "Everyone please stay where you are!" Now I know.

It reminds me of that horrible scene in the Great Waldo Pepper and Pepper's somewhat justified reaction.

If they would have let the crowd do that during Charlie Hillard's accident at Sun-N-Fun, he would still be alive today.