Warbird Information Exchange

To all:

Last June's amazing news that P-47D "Dottie Mae" was recovered from an Austrian lake in rather good condition caused me to wonder if the same might also hold true for 2nd Lt Ralph "Kidd" Hofer's P-51B - 43-6946 (QP-L) - lost on 5 April 1944 after it crashed into a lake near Potsdam, Germany. His plane, piloted that day by fellow 4th Fighter Group officer 1st Lt Allen F. Bunte, had struck a high-tension wire while on a strafing run near the Gardelegen, Germany aerodrome to the west of Potsdam.
Bunte managed to extricate himself from the submerged Mustang's cockpit and to make it to shore where he was quickly taken POW. He would later be repatriated.
Who's up for another recovery operation? Having lived in Germany for well over a decade (to include in nearby Berlin), I can serve as the German interpreter.

Shade Ruff

Nice idea.
Do you know how deep it is? Maybe a good idea to go diving there first to see what is left of it?

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To all:

Unfortunately, we'd have to first establish its exact location. This would require some more research on both the American and German sides of the ocean since the landscape around Potsdam (in the German state of Brandenburg) is dotted with lakes that are large enough to swallow a P-51B.
The clear take away, however, is that there stands a reasonably good chance this uniquely historic warbird still rests at the bottom of one of these lakes. While it's possible the Wehrmacht may have attempted to recover it during the war, I would imagine it had more pressing matters to contend with.
I'd like to hear from others interested in pursuing this.

Shade Ruff

The story of Bunte's / Hofer's a/c pops up every now and then, and for many decades researchers have tried to locate the exact spot where this a/c came down back in April 1944.

The aircraft so far has proved to be very elusive, and general belief is that it has long sunken into / been covered by heavy layers of mud and therefore may be lost forever, or if ever found by modern magnetic, electonic or whatever gear, impossible to raise.

This is one of those "what if" stories that keep us awake during nights.
I can offer my assistance in putting together my knowledge on the loss itself and also what information I have on the searches performed so far.

Best regards from Switzerland
Martin / Swiss Mustangs

Martin,

Danke for the insights. Anything you might be able to share ref searches to date would be most useful. Send me a PM if need be. I appreciate the points you raise since I know the "Seenlandschaft" in that area is known for its murkiness. The point you raise about the mud, however, can prove to be a double-edged sword. While arguably serving to initially hinder locating the plane, it would also likely serve to preserve the aircraft all the more in a cocoon-like covering.
The members of this forum who have access to MACRs or German war records documenting the Germans' capture of American POWs could prove extremely helpful in narrowing our search. Consider too, that Potsdam is located in what used to be the Soviet zone of occupation/DDR for over 40 years. In my mind this makes the likelihood of the plane's survival (vice its recovery by the Soviets/East Germans) even more likely.

Shade Ruff

Shade

pleasure is mine.

here's an excerpt from "1000 Destroyed", dealing with the successful mission of 5th April 1944 and the loss of Beeson and Bunte:

"Bunte, the stringy, clownish Floridian, flying in Beeson's squadron, thought it was flak that caused his plane to begin heating up as he pulled off a smoking drome. Not until after the war did he learn from "Monty" Montgomery, who was flying behind him, that the damage was caused when his plane hit a high-tension wire.

Fire gushed from the Mustang. Bunte, who once ended an official combat report with, "I claim one Me. 109 destroyed and one hell of a lot of intrepidity", was on the point of burning up in his cockpit when he saw the lake near Potsdam, on the outskirts of Berlin. Bunte dived the plane into the lake and fellow-flyers saw the red nose of the Mustang plummet into the water, carrying Bunte. The tail section disappeared.

"God he's had it!" a pilot gasped.

The impact of the plane on the water knocked Bunte unconcious. Strapped in the cockpit, Bunte sank with the craft. Under the water Bunte struggled with his daze. He tugged and pulled to get out of his chute harness instead of undoing the safety belt, which was what held him prisoner in the water. Bunte passed out again and somehow--he never knew exactly--he floated to the surface.

Sputtering, his long black hair glistening with blood, Bunte pulled the string to inflate the rubber dinghy. He got one side inflated, but there wasn't enough strength left in his stringy arms to inflate the other side.

But there was a tree growing in the water a few yards away. "Old J. C. himself must have put that tree there for me to grab," Bunte advised me after the war.

He staggered to the beach and collapsed. He wearily lifted his throbbing head to see some German civilians approaching. But even in his fright of them, Bunte was too exhausted to do more than pant.

To his surprise, the Germans wrapped him in a blanket, gave him a precious cigaret, placed him in a wagon and delivered him to a Luftwaffe airdrome."

More to come

Martin

afterthoughts.......

1) Bunte reportedly came down south of Potsdam. When looking at the map of the greater Potsdam area, there is a heck of a lot of water ! So the search-grid is quite large. Upon checking my records, I have information that the MACR doesn't give any further clarification or a more detailed location as to where Bunte went down.

2) Bunte reportedly was lost after attacks on an airfield in the Gardelegen area (or Gardelegen A/F itself) - when looking at the distance between Gardelegen and Potsdam, I find it difficult to belive that Bunte made it that far with his damaged P-51B; furthermore, it also is slightly strange that Bunte would fly due East with a damaged a/c instead of heading in the opposite direction.....


just thinking out loud

Martin

Martin,

I initially thought the same when I did my own map recon. What is clear, however, is that there don't appear to be any substantially sized lakes/bodies of water IVO Gardelegen. This supports the Potsdam crash location.

What was the 4th Fighter Group's assigned mission that day? If he attacked a target of opportunity enroute to the vicinity of Berlin, a Gardelegen strafing run and ultimate crash in Potsdam makes sense.

Additionally, it also isn't totally clear where/at what point he struck the high-tension line.

BLUF: A water ditching in one of the Berlin/Potsdam-area lakes makes sense to me given the known facts.

Regards,

Shade Ruff

Shade, basically I concur !

The mission of 5th April 1944 was strafing several airfields in Germany - i.e. the group set out to hit the German Luftwaffe sitting on the ground - with tremendous results.

Will go through my records at home to get a clearer picture of the flight-path, time-line, etc.

Rob - will PM you when I get to that point - thanks !

Martin

again from "1000 Destroyed"

"On April 5 the group swept deep into the Continent, raising blisters on German dromes where planes were parked. Then U. S. papers carried this:


BOISE, Idaho, April 20-(UP)-
Maj. Duane W. Beeson, 22, with 21" planes to his credit was the third-ranking American ace in the European theater, has been missing in action since April 5, his father reported today.

It was a ground-gunner. Beeson was too good for German fighter pilots, but his skill was unavailing before flak-g.unners. He zoomed down low over the parked planes and the German gunners sent up a spray of golf balls. Sending this superb aerial duelist over a flak-studded drome would be like riding the winner of the Kentucky Derby through a snake swamp.

The flak punctured Beeson's cooling system and the plane began overheating. Beeson kept flying in the hope that he might make it back to friendly territory. He kept his eyes on the engine temperature needle and watched it rise. Then his eyes shifted to a brightly lacquered ornament swinging from his gunsight. It was a bee. "Bud" Care and his English fiancee, in whose wedding Beeson was to have been the best man in a few days, had given it to him the day before in Cambridge. It was to serve as a luck charm. Beeson looked back at the temperature: 150 degrees. He looked up at the talisman again and shrugged. It was no use. Beeson said over the RT.

"Got to bail out ... Tell Bud his Bee didn't work so well."

Beeson, the high strung, ruthless boy killer, floated down in his chute. He had come a long way since Eagle Squadron days when his fretful eagerness to pick fights with Jerries had caused fellow-flyers to view him as a pest, since those days when the RAF had sent him to test-fire his Spitfire cannon and he had flown across the Channel to test-fire at German gun emplacements because, after all, they hadn't said where to fire, had they? Beeson hit the ground and looked up to see the Mustangs streaking back to Debden. He freed himself of his chute. He thought then, in the smothering loneliness that oppressed pilots when first shot down in enemy territory, of Gentile. He was bitter when he thought of what had been snatched from his grasp-- by a ground-gunner. Four other 4th Group pilots were already awaiting their turn at interrogation when the German guards herded Beeson in. Prisoners were not supposed to let on if they knew each other, but the four unzippered grills when Beeson added his misery to their company. He couldn't help Grinning back. It didn't make much difference: the Germans had a dossier on each one. "


Now we have to find out whether Bunte was lost before Beeson; especially due to the fact that the above text contains an intriguing information:
"Beeson hit the ground and looked up to see the Mustangs streaking back to Debden."


Beeson's MACR is #3606 (43-6819 QP-B) , Bunte's #3609

Charles D. Carr of the 334th FS was also lost that day, MACR #3607 (43-6837 QP-I)


all three MACR's carry the information "lost near Brandenburg"; Beeson reportedly b/o near Stendal.


the search goes on
Martin

NB: there is an article in an old AAHS journal on Beeson - IIRC there is a detailed narrative on that very mission that made him POW

This might sound far fetched.......

Can you guys locate the proper era maps of the electrical power grid ?

This could narrow your seach a lot.

How many power lines in the 40's where high enough for the plane to crash ?

Just my 2 cents from Canada.

Michel

good point, but losses due to H/T wires were very common - imagine P-51's flying as low as possible over flat territory (as it usually was around airfields) in order to fly lower than the gun batteries / flak-gunners could shoot - the pilots would only zoom back to safe altitude when out of range.

Some made it home with wires dangling from wings, bomb-shackles or wrapped around propellers, others didn't, mainly because the wires caused deep structural damage, severing coolant lines or control cables.


In Bunte's case it appears that he snagged such a H/T wire, eventually causing his Mustang to catch fire, most probably due to oil / fuel igniting on hot metal like exhaust stacks.....

Martin

Martin,

This data nicely supports Bunte's Potsdam crash location. Stendal is located to the east of Gardelegen halfway (and almost on a direct line) to Berlin.

Beeson, like Bunte, went down east of Gardelegen. This supports my theory that the 4th FG's mission that day had them continuing further to the east - beyond Gardelegen.

Furthermore, Brandenburg is located just to the west of Potsdam. It also has several lakes in its immediate vicinity.

Shade Ruff

Shade -

please PM me you e-mail - I have the Intelligence Summary No. 151 of the VIII FC for F.O. 288 on 5th April 1944 - highly interesting and giving a great deal of insights as to what airfields were attacked and who scored where...

It's a PDF of 211 KB

Martin

Fascinating!

All I can add is data from the official 334 FS diary for that day. Hope it helps you guys in some small way over there:

----------------------------------------------------------


Bunte was flying Blue 2 (QP-L). Beeson was flying White 1 (QP-B). Carr (the third of three MIAs that day for the 334th) was flying White 4 (QP-I)

F.O. 288 was a Jackpot - "Target Juterbog A/D" (all spellings verbatim per diary). This was the 152nd operational sortie for the 334th FS ... #21 in Mustangs.

Briefing at 1030 hrs.

Group led by Col. Blakeslee. Mission t/o and land times: 1245 - 1750 hrs.

"Group made landfall near Zandvoort at 23,000' at 1339 hrs, estimated due to 10/10ths clouds which broke to 6/10ths east of Brunswick. Group went down through cloud near Berlin at 1500 hrs., and attacked Friedersdorf Airdrome (12 trainer a/c on the field). The following airdromes were then attacked: a large permanent airdrome near Potsdam and lakes, having new JU 88s; Stendal airdrome, having 50+ twin-engine a/c, JU 88s predominating; Plaue airdrome, having JU 88s; and an unidentified airdrome west of Brandenburg, with 15+ JU 88s.

Our claims [were] distributed on [all] these airdromes where defense was moderate to intense from light and medium flak. Destroyed a/c were substantiated by fires or explosions seen from orbits over the airdromes.

Capt. Duane W. Beeson and 1Lt Charles D. Carr were hit by flak from airdrome, west of Brandenburg, after attack by a section of 4 a/c against 8-10 JU 88s in good alignment. They were not seen to bail out but reported their intentions to bail out, over R/T. An aircraft believed to be piloted by Lt. Allen F. Bunte was seen to crash on edge of lake by Potsdam. Group crossed out over S. Ijmuiden at 20,000' at 1630 hrs."

----------------------------------------------------------

Wade

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