Cheapest Warbirds to Operate

L-4Pilot · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm **Posts:** 616

Here is my entry, our T-41B, while not as cheap as our L-4 was it is a pretty decent combination of cruise, fuel burn, comfort and load carrying. Max cruise is 125 mph at 11 gph at which point it reaches compressibility. However I would not turn down a Spitfire trade.

JimH · **Posted:** Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:40 pm

Acquisition cost is the big hurdle. Once you get past that, it's Gas, Tires, and Oil. With ownership and time comes spare parts, an engine overhaul budget, insurance budget. You can't go wrong with a Stearman, or a PT-19. I also think the BT-13 is a great platform. All three of these are in the 65-95,000 range and burn about 15 gallons an hour. They aren't speed demons but they are good honest airplanes. The T-6 is the next level.

Jim

L-4Pilot · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm **Posts:** 616

I agree Jim, those are all good aircraft. I have around 50 hours in a PT-17, but have never flown a PT-19 or any of the others you mentioned.

I guess fuel and insurance costs have the most direct impact on Warbird ownership after acquisition price. It seems a lot of the Liaison and trainer aircraft fall in that $65,000 to $95,000 range you mentioned. There is also the issue what aircraft will fit in a standard T-Hangar.

L-19/O-1
T-41B
PT-17
PT-19
BT-13
O-2

There are quite a few that show up in the next tier down $25,000 to $65,000 with exceptions both above and below the range.

L-2
L-3
L-4
L-5
L-16
L-17
T-41A

StangStung · **Posted:** Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:51 am

This is actually a great topic. You see the gobs of money spent on the major restorations and it seems like an unobtainable goal to get involved. The list of aircraft mentioned at the price points referenced seem a lot more accessible.

L-4Pilot · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm **Posts:** 616

Insurance costs have gone up especially on tail wheel aircraft. Having owned several of the light TW birds including L-2, L-3,L-4, and L-19 here are some actual costs. The insurance costs have more to do with the accident/experience of the aircraft than pilot qualifications. These are some actual costs for me.

L-4 $1,100/yr Policy dated 2010, $500,000 liability (max AOPA offers), $50,000 hull. 3500 total tail wheel time 500 in type

L-19 $3,100/yr (2016 quote) One million smooth, $75,000 hull, 1400 in type.

T-41B $900/yr (2016 rate) One million smooth, $75,000 hull, 250 in type

The Cessna T-41A and T-41B are lumped in with the civilian C-172 series aircraft for statistical accident experience.

Maybe someone can share some numbers on other Warbirds.

StangStung · **Posted:** Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:55 am

Any thoughts on cheap ways to build up tw time?

L-4Pilot · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm **Posts:** 616

StangStung wrote:

Any thoughts on cheap ways to build up tw time?

Some Glider clubs have TW aircraft. I flew tow planes for 15 years in glider clubs that included Super Cubs, L-19s, Pawnee, Citabria. We were supposed to have rotating tow pilots but every time it was my turn to fly the gliders the other tow pilot would not show up and I would get stuck in the tow plane all day. Some clubs don't require a commercial.

Another way is to buy a Champ or other cheap 65 hp airplane. You will build a lot of time because it takes so long to get any where. I flew a L-4 from Knoxville to Sun and Fun one year and it took 21 hours on the tach down and back.

They hire tow pilots on the beaches in Fla every year and some are still using Pawnees and Citabrias, you would need a commercial.

marine air · **Posted:** Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:38 pm

Yep. There's a guy in Florida that offers airplanes for sale a couple times a year on Barnstormers. He likes those pre-war Aeronca Chiefs, TAC Defenders, and sometimes Taylorcrafts or maybe a PA-15 or PA-17. They are usually in annual but look like they were pulled out of some estate somewhere. Who knows how old the fabric, glue, wood or engines are? They are usually around $12k to as high as $16K. Buy one, get a fresh annual with sale and fly the hell out of it. Fuel is as cheap as it has ever been.
Don't be shocked if the airplane won't pass the next annual or needs a cash infusion. You at least have a year to fly it a lot before the next annual. Oh, by the way, when the next annual inspection approaches, take in a partner. Your cash from sale of half the airplane will cover your part for whatever is needed at the next annual (replacement fabric work, etc.)

flightsimer · **Posted:** Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:42 pm

Hey L-4 sort of off topic but what ever came of the O-58A? Did you have to split the components up or did someone buy the complete project?

L2Driver · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:36 am

I can vouch for the low operating costs of the 65-hp L-birds. My L-2 insurance is $1300 (for hull and inflight via Avemco. $50k hull -- $800 for hull only) and I average about 4.5gph fuel burn and maybe a quart or two of oil/yr. Annuals average about $800-1000/yr.

Simple and rugged little planes with very little to break. As already mentioned, you can build time very quickly since it takes a very long time to get anywhere at 75-85 mph.

L-4Pilot · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm **Posts:** 616

flightsimer wrote:

Hey L-4 sort of off topic but what ever came of the O-58A? Did you have to split the components up or did someone buy the complete project?

Everything went to one collector who plans on having the restoration completed.

L-4Pilot · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm **Posts:** 616

L2Driver wrote:

I can vouch for the low operating costs of the 65-hp L-birds. My L-2 insurance is $1300 (for hull and inflight via Avemco. $50k hull -- $800 for hull only) and I average about 4.5gph fuel burn and maybe a quart or two of oil/yr. Annuals average about $800-1000/yr.

Simple and rugged little planes with very little to break. As already mentioned, you can build time very quickly since it takes a very long time to get anywhere at 75-85 mph.

My L-2 was a speed demon compared to the Cubs I have owned.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:28 am

StangStung wrote:

Any thoughts on cheap ways to build up tw time?

There are planes out there. I don't have it anymore but I picked up a BC-12D for $7500 one time.

JohnB · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:06 pm

marine air wrote:

They are usually in annual but look like they were pulled out of some estate somewhere. Who knows how old the fabric, glue, wood or engines are?
Don't be shocked if the airplane won't pass the next annual or needs a cash infusion. You at least have a year to fly it a lot before the next annual.

I see what you're saying, but we're not talking about an old car here where the worst that can happen is you have to use your cell to call AAA!

You're trusting your life that someone hasn't pencil-whipped the annual to make a quick and profitable sale.
The wood spar will PROBABLY last until your annual, the fabric and engine will PROBABLY hold together, but....

I'm not referring to any particular dealer, but inactivity in the enemy of engines...what you describe is logical and is a great way to get your first plane, but I wouldn't stray too far from flat land and empty fields with an unknown engine.

In short: just because it's in annual a doesn't mean it's safe.

phil65 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:00 pm

JohnB wrote:

marine air wrote:

They are usually in annual but look like they were pulled out of some estate somewhere. Who knows how old the fabric, glue, wood or engines are?
Don't be shocked if the airplane won't pass the next annual or needs a cash infusion. You at least have a year to fly it a lot before the next annual.

I see what you're saying, but we're not talking about an old car here where the worst that can happen is you have to use your cell to call AAA!

You're trusting your life that someone hasn't pencil-whipped the annual to make a quick and profitable sale.
The wood spar will PROBABLY last until your annual, the fabric and engine will PROBABLY hold together, but....

+1

Even if your buying a C172, pay for the pre-buy or the annual yourself so that you can choose the shop/mechanic.

Phil
A&P, I.A.

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