Horten 229 reality versus fantasy?

[pjpahs]

they do have the wings, seen them in the restoration annex. Google Horten 229 but don't go to the wiki page, go to nasm page and has a whole bunch of photos, including the wings. Horten Ho 229 V3 / NASM

[Stephan Wilkinson]

You're right, of course. I printed out all of those fascinating NASM pages and simply forgot I had them stashed in my research files.

[pstrany]

The wings still exist. Go to this page:
[url]
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/h ... d=noscript[/url]

About halfway down the page is two shots of the wings in storage. There are also a few other nice shots of the airframe.



Paul

[Davo87]

I was just at the Udvar-Hazy Center this past January 10th, 2016 and took this photo of the Horton Ho 229 in the Restoration Hanger. The wings have been in that location in the hanger since at least January 2015 where I saw them the last time I visited the museum. The main body has been moved in next to the wings since that visit.

[shrike]

I'm curious if anyone has actually checked to see if those are the correct wings for the airframe, as no two of them were exactly alike. I recall that the wings on two Fw190D survivors got swapped in storage somewhere leading to both having some difficulties.

[James D]

I remember a good few years ago, seeing some video on Youtube of the 229 in flight (and I don't mean the current, laughable "secret US test" videos that are on Youtube). This was taken from the ground. Anyone have a link to this film? I never found it again after it disappeared the last time.
It is a fascinating aircraft, even if it is just a historical footnote of unproven worth.

[DoraNineFan]

I remember a good few years ago, seeing some video on Youtube of the 229 in flight (and I don't mean the current, laughable "secret US test" videos that are on Youtube). This was taken from the ground. Anyone have a link to this film? I never found it again after it disappeared the last time.
It is a fascinating aircraft, even if it is just a historical footnote of unproven worth.

The H.IX V2 that was actually test flown for a total of about two hours before crashing is significantly smaller than the Ho-229 design by Gotha that is now with NASM. It is very doubtful that any test flights were attempted with the V3. The Northrop smaller wings had already flown so there wasn't much more to be learned other to study the design and the jet engines.

[James D]

The H.IX V2 that was actually test flown for a total of about two hours before crashing is significantly smaller than the Ho-229 design by Gotha that is now with NASM. It is very doubtful that any test flights were attempted with the V3. The Northrop smaller wings had already flown so there wasn't much more to be learned other to study the design and the jet engines.

I never realised that. I always thought it was very similar, except for being an earlier version of the same aircraft. Thanks.

[marine air]

Actually, If you go to Udvar -Hazy and look at the Northrop P-61B and the N9M flying wing parked in front of it, it is shocking how primitive the Northrop designs are. Go up on the walkways and look down at the aircraft from different angles. The Northrop is very crude compared to the Horten designs. The Horten designs obsess over efficiency, and airflow as it moves across the aircraft. According to Wikipedia, The Horten brothers worked together with Professor Lippisch. First guy to design a flying wing. There is a Lippisch flying wing in the restoration center you guys havven't even mentioned. It's painted white.
Meanwhile, postwar, Professor Lippisch came to America under Operation Paper Clip. Magically Jack Northrop started building flying wings! Unknown where the Hortens brothers went immediate postwar. The Horten aircraft and gliders are quite a bit more advanced in every detail. One of the major design differences noted between the Horten jet wings and the Northrop YB-35, YB-49 etc are the Horten wings have a little "tail" at the center of the trailing edge. The Northrop designs deleted the tail but have a much more advanced sweep of the leading edge. The Horten aircraft could be looped , rolled, and stalled. The Northrop designs can't do any of that. In fact if flown too slowly they will "tumble" with disastrous results. The B-2 Spirit has software and flight systems designed to prohibit it from flying below a certain speed that is far above stalling.
Dr. Lippiisch also was the designer of the tailless Me-163 Komet rocket fighter.

[DoraNineFan]

Actually, If you go to Udvar -Hazy and look at the Northrop P-61B and the N9M flying wing parked in front of it, it is shocking how primitive the Northrop designs are. Go up on the walkways and look down at the aircraft from different angles. The Northrop is very crude compared to the Horten designs. The Horten designs obsess over efficiency, and airflow as it moves across the aircraft. According to Wikipedia, The Horten brothers worked together with Professor Lippisch. First guy to design a flying wing. There is a Lippisch flying wing in the restoration center you guys havven't even mentioned. It's painted white.
Meanwhile, postwar, Professor Lippisch came to America under Operation Paper Clip. Magically Jack Northrop started building flying wings! Unknown where the Hortens brothers went immediate postwar. The Horten aircraft and gliders are quite a bit more advanced in every detail. One of the major design differences noted between the Horten jet wings and the Northrop YB-35, YB-49 etc are the Horten wings have a little "tail" at the center of the trailing edge. The Northrop designs deleted the tail but have a much more advanced sweep of the leading edge. The Horten aircraft could be looped , rolled, and stalled. The Northrop designs can't do any of that. In fact if flown too slowly they will "tumble" with disastrous results. The B-2 Spirit has software and flight systems designed to prohibit it from flying below a certain speed that is far above stalling.
Dr. Lippiisch also was the designer of the tailless Me-163 Komet rocket fighter.

Very good points and through this I have been reading that the Hortens were very meticulous with their designs and data and deserve much credit. At the same time, a television show and many "gamer types" have been insisting that the entire concept of stealth was born out of the Ho-229 and Northrop's wing designs did not exist until the Ho-229 arrived in the US, which is not the case.

[JohnB]

Remember the N9 was very much a low budget proof of concept affair.
Don't judge the quality of Northrop's designs by looking at it.

[Kyleb]

The Horten aircraft and gliders are quite a bit more advanced in every detail. One of the major design differences noted between the Horten jet wings and the Northrop YB-35, YB-49 etc are the Horten wings have a little "tail" at the center of the trailing edge. The Northrop designs deleted the tail but have a much more advanced sweep of the leading edge. The Horten aircraft could be looped , rolled, and stalled. The Northrop designs can't do any of that. In fact if flown too slowly they will "tumble" with disastrous results.

The B-35 and B-49 were very large all metal aircraft and were pressurized with autopilots, yaw dampeners, etc. It is very hard to characterize them as less advanced than a small wooden pre-production prototype. Regarding the Northrop's ability to loop and roll, that's a high hurdle for a large bomber as compared to a fighter size aircraft. That said, is there verified information showing that the -229 was looped, rolled, or stalled? I'd be surprised to find that for an airplane that had a fatal crash on what was apparently its third flight.

[bdk]

Actually, If you go to Udvar -Hazy and look at the Northrop P-61B and the N9M flying wing parked in front of it, it is shocking how primitive the Northrop designs are. Go up on the walkways and look down at the aircraft from different angles. The Northrop is very crude compared to the Horten designs. The Horten designs obsess over efficiency, and airflow as it moves across the aircraft. According to Wikipedia, The Horten brothers worked together with Professor Lippisch. First guy to design a flying wing. There is a Lippisch flying wing in the restoration center you guys havven't even mentioned. It's painted white.

The N1M was designed to test different wing sweep angles, hence the fit of certain components wasn't always optimum.

The Horten 229 was a 1944 design.

"The N-1M was one of a progression of experimental aircraft that further developed Northrop's all-wing concept. The aircraft was produced in the United States and was developed during 1939 and 1940 as a flying testbed for the purpose of proving Jack Northrop's vision of a practical Flying Wing. Built mostly of specially laminated layers of glued wood, the design of both wooden wings allowed for easy configuration changes with the central blended fuselage, which was made of tubular steel. The diminutive, twin-engine test aircraft served its purpose well, first taking to the skies on 3 July 1941 at Baker Dry Lake in California."

Northrop had actually first started work on a flying wing design in the late 1920s.

http://www.leadingedgeaviationinsurance ... ewing.html

And don't forget the MX-224, MX-344, XP-79 and JB-1 programs.

[marine air]

Thanks for educating me on the N-1M. Didn't realize it was a pre-war design flying in 1940. It looks like a rough "home built" but that makes sense as they were continually making design changes. I'd love to see them add a wing to the Udvar-Hazy building that houses all the flying wings together. Plus add the Vought "Flying flapjack" and Curtiss XP-55 Ascender. Both are out on loan at this time.
The Space Gallery was fantastic, something along those lines. Since the HO-229 was stored outside for a dozen years postwar, would like to see it brought back to an "as found condition. Looking "airworthy" and hanging from the ceiling. It's much prettier with the gear up.

[Warbird Kid]

Plus add the Vought "Flying flapjack" and Curtiss XP-55 Ascender. Both are out on loan at this time.

While I understand the V-173 will probably go back to Udavr-Hazy, it would be nice to see her returned back to the factory where she was built! Maybe by then we'll actually be 100% open to the public!