Mojave jet fighters.

[Neal Nurmi]

Some of the QFs had N numbers, and others US Army serials. Why Army and not Air Force, and why some N numbers? Were the Army serial numbers specifically for aviation, and were they just mixed in with helicopters and the usual Army light aircraft serials?

[quemerford]

Some of the QFs had N numbers, and others US Army serials. Why Army and not Air Force, and why some N numbers? Were the Army serial numbers specifically for aviation, and were they just mixed in with helicopters and the usual Army light aircraft serials?

N-numbers were applied to ALL QF-86Es prior to delivery from FSI: post-delivery some aircraft returned to Mojave for repair etc, and hence the mix.

Since the QF-86E was a pure Army program (the USAF had MQM-102 etc), the Sabres were marked 'US Army' and were marked with their former RCAF s/n.

For info, the two a/c visible are:

23309 (ex-N92473), which was received by the Army on 6th February 1979, performed 6 drone missions and was shot down by a Chaparral missile on 11th June 1986.

N70726 (RCAF 23291) was taken on by the Army 9th July 1979 and survived 2 drone sorties until shot down by a Roland GAM on 29th August 1983.

Last edited by quemerford on Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

[JohnB]

I think the F-84F was taken back by NMUSAF (USAFM as was) and I recall it's a gate guard now...somewhere.

Great Falls, Montana, IIRC.
The internet tells me: "52-6974, on static display at the Malmstrom AFB Museum, Great Falls, Montana".

There was a thread on this topic back in 2005 and WIX-member Steven M. Dennis said at that time:

Actually, if the info I have in my records is correct, Mr. Ward's "Streak", (painted in Thunderbirds colors), N84JW s/n 52-6969, (which performed at TICO shows down in Florida as Rob Rohr mentioned) was apparently repossessed by the USAF and stuck on a pole at Malmstrom AFB, Montana, where she was repainted in the markings of a 407th Strategic Fighter Wing bird with the false I.D. of 52-6974.

The Pima '-84F in Thunderbird colors is supposedly 52-6563.

[ALOHADAVE]

23309 (ex-N92473), which was received by the Army on 6th Februaru 1979, performed 6 drone missions and was shot down by a Chaparral missile on 11th June 1986.

N70726 (RCAF 23291) was taken on by the Army 9th July 1979 and survived 2 drone sorties until shot down by a Roland GAM on 29th August 1983.


Where were they shot down at? Holloman AFB Range, Barry-Goldwater Range in Arizona or where?

[quemerford]

23309 (ex-N92473), which was received by the Army on 6th Februaru 1979, performed 6 drone missions and was shot down by a Chaparral missile on 11th June 1986.

N70726 (RCAF 23291) was taken on by the Army 9th July 1979 and survived 2 drone sorties until shot down by a Roland GAM on 29th August 1983.


Where were they shot down at? Holloman AFB Range, Barry-Goldwater Range in Arizona or where?

Most shoot-downs at WSMR, New Mexico and missions flown from Northrop Strip. FSI kept a detachment at Holloman to support.

[Lon Moer]

23309 (ex-N92473), which was received by the Army on 6th Februaru 1979, performed 6 drone missions and was shot down by a Chaparral missile on 11th June 1986.

N70726 (RCAF 23291) was taken on by the Army 9th July 1979 and survived 2 drone sorties until shot down by a Roland GAM on 29th August 1983.


Where were they shot down at? Holloman AFB Range, Barry-Goldwater Range in Arizona or where?

Here's a webpage archive of the Flight System Sabre's and they're fates; http://archive.is/xAGaH

[quemerford]

23309 (ex-N92473), which was received by the Army on 6th Februaru 1979, performed 6 drone missions and was shot down by a Chaparral missile on 11th June 1986.

N70726 (RCAF 23291) was taken on by the Army 9th July 1979 and survived 2 drone sorties until shot down by a Roland GAM on 29th August 1983.


Where were they shot down at? Holloman AFB Range, Barry-Goldwater Range in Arizona or where?

Here's a webpage archive of the Flight System Sabres and their fates; http://archive.is/xAGaH

Part of my old website! Well well - nice to see it was archived/seen to be of merit. It's a bit out of date, but not bad for a starting point. Expect an update in a forthcoming issue of The Aviation Historian magazine!

[Neal Nurmi]

This was the prettiest of the Flight Systems Sabres that I saw. It apparently does still survive, somewhere over in Montana. Was this one not part of the drone program?

[quemerford]

This was the prettiest of the Flight Systems Sabres that I saw. It apparently does still survive, somewhere over in Montana. Was this one not part of the drone program?

This one wasn't a drone: one of the few Sabre 5s used by FSI from the outset as a target tug (one of two used to demonstrate the initial concept in fact). It's ex-RCAF 23285 and N8686D; it later became N92FS and is now at Thomas Stafford Airport, Tulsa OK. Unlike the drones, most of the tug sorties were done for the USAF and FSI retained ownership.

[Moonlight]

This one wasn't a drone: one of the few Sabre 5s used by FSI from the outset as a target tug (one of two used to demonstrate the initial concept in fact). It's ex-RCAF 23285 and N8686D; it later became N92FS and is now at Thomas Stafford Airport, Tulsa OK. Unlike the drones, most of the tug sorties were done for the USAF and FSI retained ownership.

If you're talking about the bird in Neil's picture, that's not correct. That Sabre does indeed live in Montana. Bozeman actually . It is owned by Bob Green, along with his CT-133 (N305FS) and 2 of his 4 F-100Fs, all former Flight Systems birds. It still retains the same tail number (N87FS), and was S/N 382 when it was with the SAAF. It's a Sabre VI, with the V wing on it.

Here is how it looks now:



And yes, it still flies.

[Fouga23]

quemerford, really a shame your old site is gone! I used to check it often. Didn't it also have updates on a static Sabre restoration in Germany and a Sabre Dog in a US museum?

[quemerford]

This one wasn't a drone: one of the few Sabre 5s used by FSI from the outset as a target tug (one of two used to demonstrate the initial concept in fact). It's ex-RCAF 23285 and N8686D; it later became N92FS and is now at Thomas Stafford Airport, Tulsa OK. Unlike the drones, most of the tug sorties were done for the USAF and FSI retained ownership.

If you're talking about the bird in Neil's picture, that's not correct. That Sabre does indeed live in Montana. Bozeman actually . It is owned by Bob Green, along with his CT-133 (N305FS) and 2 of his 4 F-100Fs, all former Flight Systems birds. It still retains the same tail number (N87FS), and was S/N 382 when it was with the SAAF. It's a Sabre VI, with the V wing on it.

Here is how it looks now:



And yes, it still flies.

Confusing I know, but the Bozeman F-86 is an ex-SAAF Sabre 6 (as you rightly say), and the second use of 'N92FS' by FSI: this and the photo from Neal are not the same machine (which is an ex-RCAF Sabre 5).

For info, the Bozeman Sabre (ex-SAAF 382) was initially registered N3847H (Oct83) and didn't become N87FS (the second iteration) until April 1984: Neal's photo dates from 1979.

For easy reference, N87FS no.1 was silver overall (painted), while N87FS No.2 was white.

FSI's airframe standard was that of the Mk.V (hard edge wing etc), and even the Sabre 6's were back-dated to this config, but most retained their Orenda 14s.

And I can take some pride in suggesting early days, the scheme on that Bozeman '86!

Last edited by quemerford on Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

[quemerford]

quemerford, really a shame your old site is gone! I used to check it often. Didn't it also have updates on a static Sabre restoration in Germany and a Sabre Dog in a US museum?

Fouga23: correct on both counts - Tom Heldt's Sabre 5 and the MAPS F-86L: both were examples of great people doing great things with minimal support.

Sadly the site got a bit much so I moved on to other things. However I do still have a deep interest in the F-86 - hence my (hopefully) helpful additions to Neal's excellent thread etc.

Anyway that reminds me that it's Neal's thread, so I shall try to be unobtrusive!

[Neal Nurmi]

Actually, the Sabre part of the thread is about done -- I've posted most all I have. It has been very interesting -- I always appreciate information about stuff I shot that I did not understand at the time. All this Flight Systems information has been very useful to me. Thank you...

[quemerford]

Neal - many thanks for posting! Here's one of N87FS (the first N87FS that is!) airborne, circa July 1979: