why is b-17 swamp ghost to be relegated to as found diorama

[APG85]

I notice the plane is missing a lot of engine panels. wing tips, etc. Does the museum have these parts or were they taken during the plane's layover on the dock during transport...?

[TheBigBadGman]

Any time an aircraft is restored, not only do you have to deal with the prospect of replacing the majority of the original components, but you also risk shoddy research as a means to an ends.

I cannot tell you how many times I have seen museums butcher a restoration because they didn't want to hear that their paints and equipment were inaccurate. How can you call it preservation if you insist on presenting it incorrectly?

As far as B-17Es are concerned, we once had a masterful static restoration in Ohio, but now its ingloriously suspended like a plastic model down in New Orleans. So much for all that work on the interior, fellas. And, we also have a Desert Rat, which is slated to be a flyer. Since we have a nice static and a potential flyer, I see no problem with Swamp Ghost being an "as is" display.

My concern lies with it staying outdoors for so long. The swamps of New Guinea is a bit different than the open sun of a concrete tarmac - the protective elements of shade, mud, etc. are no longer present. I e-mailed the museum my concern about this and they were rather curt with me. Oh well. It doesn't make sense for one of aviation's most valuable historical pieces to sit outside while you fill up hangar space with not-so-rare modern-day jets and helicopters. But that's just me.

It reminds me of when they pulled up that B-25C from Lake Murray. All that museum wanted was the belly turret, and they seriously considered backing out of the deal once the plane was out of the water. They eventually decided to put it on display as an "as is" diorama, but only displayed the cockpit and nose. Since then the rest of the airplane has sat in the junkyard - I'm sorry, "annex" - outdoors nearby. I sincerely hope that that museum in Hawaii has a bit more respect than that.

[p51]

My concern lies with it staying outdoors for so long. The swamps of New Guinea is a bit different than the open sun of a concrete tarmac - the protective elements of shade, mud, etc. are no longer present. I e-mailed the museum my concern about this and they were rather curt with me.

Not that your concern isn't valid, but I have to ask the question, how many similar emails do you think they (or any other museum) get each day for equally valid or downright insane concerns as well?
Honestly, where is their responsibility to even read your email, let alone act on it? Are you a well respected name in the preservation community?
If not, why should they listen to you, even if you have a valid point?
I'm not beating up on you specifically or saying your point isn't valid. I'm just saying I have never understood folks who contact museums out of the blue then get all shcoked when nobody listens to what is, in effect, a totally random person out of the blue with an opinion. And thought an email, no less...

[sandiego89]

I notice the plane is missing a lot of engine panels. wing tips, etc. Does the museum have these parts or were they taken during the plane's layover on the dock during transport...?

I don't know, but even from some older photos while she was still in the swamp, it appears panels have been liberated for quite some time. Likely anything that could be unscrewed or bent off, such as access panels, was in danger of walking away at some point. The time on the docks likely did not help.

I would support a diorama that replaced those parts that walked away by souveneer hunters, but still vote for "as found" display circa 1972.

[Zachary]

Not that your concern isn't valid, but I have to ask the question, how many similar emails do you think they (or any other museum) get each day for equally valid or downright insane concerns as well?
Honestly, where is their responsibility to even read your email, let alone act on it? Are you a well respected name in the preservation community? If not, why should they listen to you, even if you have a valid point? I'm not beating up on you specifically or saying your point isn't valid. I'm just saying I have never understood folks who contact museums out of the blue then get all shocked when nobody listens to what is, in effect, a totally random person out of the blue with an opinion. And through an email, no less...

THIS!!!

[ALOHADAVE]

I talked to the PAM Curator. When the B-17 Swamp Ghost arrived in Hawaii it was missing many internal parts and panels that were removed during the dis-assembly process and boxed up. Several boxes did not arrive with the plane body. To my knowledge these boxes of material are still missing (held in transit). I also heard a story that some stuff was held back by people who wanted more money.
So yes, A lot of stuff is missing from the B-17.

I think it will make a great static display and keeping it as original as possible is best.

[TheBigBadGman]

I think you misunderstood me.

I didn't e-mail them with a list of demands or anything like that - I simply asked a question: this airplane sitting outdoors concerns me, when will they be moving it indoors?

I don't make any claims at being more important than the next guy. No, I'm not some Taigh Ramey. I have a PhD in history but I have found over the years that historical scholarship gets you nowhere with the preservation community so I never bother mentioning it. It shouldn't matter.

It would be unwise for a museum to simply dismiss whatever concerns are brought up, either through correspondence or in person. Museums heavily depend on the charity of sponsors, and a displeased sponsor is one who stops paying.

This is a problem that the historic aviation community in particular struggles with. I know a great many people with a passion for warbirds who have wont lift a finger to help maintain their favorite aircraft and museums because those in charge treated them like dirt when they offered to help. I'm not condemning those folks in Hawaii or anything like that, just saying that its a mindset all too easy to fall into: 'we want your money, not your help - if you don't have money, go back home.'

I'm just glad Swamp Ghost is being moved indoors - I see no reason to fuss at people who have been eager for this to happen. That was my issue.

[p51]

I think you misunderstood me.
I didn't e-mail them with a list of demands or anything like that - I simply asked a question: this airplane sitting outdoors concerns me, when will they be moving it indoors?

No, I didn't misunderstand you at all. My point is that a random person they don't know, making a random comment via email, means next to nothing to a museum, given all the other people doing the same on a daily basis, both sane and crazy.

It would be unwise for a museum to simply dismiss whatever concerns are brought up, either through correspondence or in person. Museums heavily depend on the charity of sponsors, and a displeased sponsor is one who stops paying.

So, are you a sponsor? No? That's probably why they blew you off, because yours was just one in a countless stream of well-intentioned randomness, in the perspective of the museum, that is.
Museum people know the donor type when they see them. Donor types generally don't get onto forums like this, they have a way about them that transcends the mere fan type.

I'm not condemning those folks in Hawaii or anything like that, just saying that its a mindset all too easy to fall into: 'we want your money, not your help - if you don't have money, go back home.'

I think most museums didn't 'fall' into that mindset, they were born there.

[Mark Allen M]

Donor types generally don't get onto forums like this, they have a way about them that transcends the mere fan type.

I beg to differ

[CH2Tdriver]

I think you misunderstood me.

I didn't e-mail them with a list of demands or anything like that - I simply asked a question: this airplane sitting outdoors concerns me, when will they be moving it indoors?

I don't make any claims at being more important than the next guy. No, I'm not some Taigh Ramey. I have a PhD in history but I have found over the years that historical scholarship gets you nowhere with the preservation community so I never bother mentioning it. It shouldn't matter.

It would be unwise for a museum to simply dismiss whatever concerns are brought up, either through correspondence or in person. Museums heavily depend on the charity of sponsors, and a displeased sponsor is one who stops paying.

This is a problem that the historic aviation community in particular struggles with. I know a great many people with a passion for warbirds who have wont lift a finger to help maintain their favorite aircraft and museums because those in charge treated them like dirt when they offered to help. I'm not condemning those folks in Hawaii or anything like that, just saying that its a mindset all too easy to fall into: 'we want your money, not your help - if you don't have money, go back home.'

I'm just glad Swamp Ghost is being moved indoors - I see no reason to fuss at people who have been eager for this to happen. That was my issue.

THIS!

[CH2Tdriver]

I think you misunderstood me.
I didn't e-mail them with a list of demands or anything like that - I simply asked a question: this airplane sitting outdoors concerns me, when will they be moving it indoors?

No, I didn't misunderstand you at all. My point is that a random person they don't know, making a random comment via email, means next to nothing to a museum, given all the other people doing the same on a daily basis, both sane and crazy.

It would be unwise for a museum to simply dismiss whatever concerns are brought up, either through correspondence or in person. Museums heavily depend on the charity of sponsors, and a displeased sponsor is one who stops paying.

So, are you a sponsor? No? That's probably why they blew you off, because yours was just one in a countless stream of well-intentioned randomness, in the perspective of the museum, that is.
Museum people know the donor type when they see them. Donor types generally don't get onto forums like this, they have a way about them that transcends the mere fan type.

I'm not condemning those folks in Hawaii or anything like that, just saying that its a mindset all too easy to fall into: 'we want your money, not your help - if you don't have money, go back home.'

I think most museums didn't 'fall' into that mindset, they were born there.

And as a PUBLIC Museum they SHOULD care about those comments, and of the fact that many have concerns about the well being of said artifact. I'm responding to this thread specifically, because PAM is one of those organizations which frequently fill up my mailbox with mass mailings about making a donation, such as "buying a brick" or something to that effect. The fact that they would dismiss outright and ignore a valid question of concern, ignoring an email, when they have no problem with unsolicited mailings to people is so one sided. If I send the check, will they respond?

[p51]

And as a PUBLIC Museum they SHOULD care about those comments, and of the fact that many have concerns about the well being of said artifact.

I assume you have never worked for a museum? I know plenty of people who do and they get the most random, annoying, obnixious and downright insane emails from people with no connection to them, about any subject you can imagine. A friend runs a RR museum in the northeast US and he has a regular guy emailing them every single day about how they need to change the typeface on their sign outside the building. He tells me they can get up to a hundred "suggestions" every day, usually stuff that has no thought to it, like suggesting they restore and run all of their steam locomotives. No plan on how to do that, just suggesting they do it.
This is the kinds of stuff museums get all the time. They have staffs for running the place and they probably get tired of all the people who aren't there helping out, assuming they know better about... well, everything.
Seriously, go work at a big museum for a year or two, or do a lot of volunteer work at one, and you'll quickly understand why these email 'suggestions' rarely ever get answered.

If I send the check, will they respond?

If it's big enough, they just might. Money talks.
And know what walks...

[TAdan]

Just posted on the PAM Facebook page 36 minutes ago. Swamp ghost has begun the 7 day process of moving indoors.

https://www.facebook.com/PacificAviatio ... =1&theater

[DH82EH]

Nice!

Thanks for the link Dan.

Andy

[PinecastleAAF]

Just posted on the PAM Facebook page 36 minutes ago. Swamp ghost has begun the 7 day process of moving indoors.

Great news. One more step in the right direction.