Warbird Information Exchange

Can I throw this idea into the mix:

a) Recover Kee Bird remains, and

b) Recover parts from 'the clobbered Turkey' and then

c) Recover the 'Lady in the Lake

Combine all three and add anything else that's out there and I believe a viable project could be established.

_________________
Peter
ESAD (E-Science and Digitalisation)

Great idea but the costs would be so high it wouldn't be feasible. I would try and focus on some of the outdoor b-29 exhibits. With that kind of money a building could be built, or possibly several

_________________
" I am a nobody in aviation, but somebody to my family."

I wish THE WIX braintrust would add two more departments. 1) A WIX graveyard and 2) a WIX penalty box, aka hockey. Certain subjects would be buried or at least off limits for a long while.

For example, the former CAF B-26 Marauder will never be rebuilt, its a collection of crash material suitable mostly for a smelter. "Kee Bird" is effectively dead and buried. IT would take half a million to a million dollars to retrieve maybe $50k in parts. Heat damaged they may not even be usable except towards a static display. THere's not even a complete aircraft anymore. Why would anyone spend money when there are above ground wrecks in the U.S. , outside displayed examples, and the Lake Meade aircraft that is complete and NEEDS to be retrieved for ecological reasons?

2) the penalty box for subjects like the Soplata collection. Nothing is going on, and nothings is going to go on for a long time. Are they waiting for Mrs. Soplata to pass, or the airline pilot son to retire and this will be his retirement job selling off assets, are the heirs fighting or maybe there are IRS problems, who knows? It could be decades before assets are dispersed.

THe warbird movement and its momentum has changed. Many collectors have satisfied their desires and in some cases collections have been completed. The best deals are much closer to home than crashed in a jungle ravine somewhere. The market favors buying complete and flying aircraft over rotten bits of carcasses pieced together with thousands of man hours and millions of dollars.

Kermit Weeks' Fertile Myrtle is much more likely to be the next flying B-29 rather than recovering any of the above. Even though I would love to Fertile Myrtle restored to flying condition, it may never get to that stage due to the costs involved.

Nobody told you to read the thread. If you don't like the subject matter,(which is titled even before you start to read,) then move to another subject which interests you

_________________
" I am a nobody in aviation, but somebody to my family."

Oh my god, somebody suggested rebuild the CAF Marauder? Seriously? How? It went straight in from 400 feet and smashed into a million pieces and burned.

I think each reader of such topics takes away something different from their experience of the subject matter. Healthy open debate about coulda, woulda, shoulda is fair enough in my book. People who take the time to research and do recoveries learn from the actions of those who have tried before. Regarding this specific topic I wasn't there, I've read the books, watched the doco and still have an open mind about it all. I think the guys who tried to get Kee Bird out must have had that same inspirational drive that makes humans want to achieve something better. As for the fire and aftermath well only those who were there can comment on that, and that's only fair. They certainly don't deserve anything negative, they gave it a go and we know the results but most of all I respect their privacy in wishing to remain silent or not get involved in any debate.

As for stopping such debates I think that is kind of harsh. OK some people may get annoyed at yet another discussion on Kee Bird by a bunch of people that have no idea, true to some degree but I think the video puts things into perspective. While the footage shows most of what is left I think it also value adds to the obvious difficulties the guys had in working at that location at the time they did. Its easier to get there now than 20 or so years ago and I agree that it would be easier to restore an outside display than recover any of the wrecks previously mentioned. But I ask if this is true why hasn't it happened? or has it? perhaps someone can step in and discuss that side of this topic. What difficulties are there in securing an outside display for restoration to flight? We've had the comments about the cost of both ie recovering wrecks vs restoring displays but I can't recall reading anything on the actual costs in time, effort and administration for securing ownership of a display aircraft. To me that would be an excellent debate to add to this which would then help people understand why these aircraft are still sitting in their isolated locations.

Being a Warbird owner (A-26) and having recovered wrecks I've see this debate, albeit on a much smaller scale from both sides. Perhaps here in Australia we don't have the same understanding or acceptance of the apparent difficulties of such ventures, I don't know, but I do learn more from reading such topics and adding to them with related updates ie the video. But I also have to say that if there is a topic that people don't like, then don't read it. I'm that way with a number of subjects and very set in my ways when comes to peoples privacy, yes I know there is some overlapping of statements here but there has to be some common ground, that common ground after all represents those principals these wrecks and open displays convey.

So, can someone give some insight into securing display aircraft for private or group restorations?

_________________
Peter
ESAD (E-Science and Digitalisation)

Dear Peter, I'd have to say that I really enjoyed your post. You hit it right on the head on everything. I think it comes down to red tape,( which can and has been cut,) dedicated people to help,( there's no problem with that,) and money,( there's the problem.) if you don't have big boy money sometimes you can't get big boy toys.

As for your a-26 invader, I love that plane. Devastating firepower. I used to play on a a-26 which sat outside at the Bradley air Musuem. It's a combat veteran of world war 2 as well. I started a good thread about a while ago. The great news is that it was pulled inside and restored. They did a great job. I never understood why the a-26 is such a overlooked aircraft when it comes to getting one or restoring them. I've seen some for sale that are much cheaper than houses, and these are warbirds! But somebody always tells me," sure you can buy a a-26 but do you want to put fuel in 2 r-2800's??"

_________________
" I am a nobody in aviation, but somebody to my family."

At least one museum has recently managed to get aircraft from the Soplata collection, so there's recent life in that story.

But on the subject of recovering Kee Bird: it shouldn't be about the monetary value of the machine. That aircraft is now a big piece of our recent history. Had Kee Bird made it's first trip without mishap, it would have ended up as 'just another' B-29. But so much has happened since it crashed on that ice cap that it's become far bigger in importance than the sum of its parts.

Either way, if we are looking at warbirds purely for monetary value then I think we have our priorities wrong. (By 'we', I mean enthusiasts, not speculators).

Kee Bird's first recovery was about doing what COULD be done, not necessarily what SHOULD be done. But going with our hearts rather than minds is what sets us apart.

If I had a million bucks I'd go for it, whether it's worth ten bucks or ten million.

There's something to be said for pulling an old plane off of the tundra, slapping some new engines on it and flying it out to a glorious welcome. What a sight it would have made...

_________________
"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

My perception is the Nova documentary has put Kee Bird in a place all its own in the warbird hall of fame. Such a great attempt that ended so badly, all documented in living color. People still have a hard time dealing with it. I get the emotional attachment but in the end I think the cost/benefit ratio of a recovery of what is left is about as low as it gets.

_________________
Always looking for WW2 Half-Tracks and Parts.

I may be coming to this late and stating the obvious, but Kee Bird had some great advantages as a project.

It was more or less intact.

It had clear ownership ie. it was abandoned and open to claim

It was located in a diplomatically friendly, liberal-democratic country with minimal corruption (Denmark is currently the 'Least Corrupt" country, I doubt it was much different then)

On those three points alone it was a superior project to, say, the Tulare B-17


Transportation alone is the only questionable issue, and a comparable human error in trucking an oversized load cross-country could have lead to the complete destruction of the airframe just as easily.

_________________
Lest Hero-worship raise it's head and cloud our vision, remember that World War II was fought and won by the same sort of twenty-something punks we wouldn't let our daughters date.

It was also virtually brand new. I heard the number 210 TT thrown around years ago.

_________________
Defending Stearmans on WIX since Jeff started badmouthing them back in 2005.

The Nova documentary was great, but you can tell that they had to cut a lot of footage. The Book Hunting Warbirds provides some more insight on this recovery effort (for those who have not read this yet).

http://www.amazon.com/Hunting-Warbirds- ... g+warbirds

The entire first expedition, where they jacked the airplane (in the lake), lowered the landing gear and got one of the original engines to run, was not covered in the Nova documentary. I think they even used a helicopter to lift barrels and place them on the tail (horizontal stabilizer) to weigh the tail down enough so that the nose would raise high enough to lower the nose gear. This was either in the book or a magazine article I read...

_________________
"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."