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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:22 am 
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Forgotten Field wrote:
I just wrote this to him, via email, because they locked the commentary after the article:

Mr. Fiorito,
Sir, this is a short refutation of your article, http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/08 ... orito.html


I was just forewarned about the content of your article, where it was freely posted for all to read, others were free (until comments were blocked) to disagree with you and share their views with other people, and you were free to write it without any fear of repercussions, suppression, or rounding up by those who disagreed with you to languish in a concentration camp until your untimely death at the hand of a person who did not view you as human. Due to your lack of hindsight, and probably foresight, I am compelled to write to you about that freedom.

You see, sir, you are freely able to write what you do in large part due to the price paid by your fellow countrymen, some of whom were probably family members of yours, and definitely were family members of mine. Yes, as a US citizen, I have family members who served and paid high prices for the freedom of Canada, the US, and every other free country in the world today.

That freedom was provided by their sacrifices. Neither you, nor I, will ever be able to sit in their shoes and share the terrible cost they paid in personal anguish, loss of comrades, and the terrible horror that is war. A number of those people would prefer the quiet of a Saturday afternoon as you do, not remembering their sacrifices, and enjoying their day. I respect their opinion, as I do yours. However, I must respectfully disagree with you for a number of reasons.

We risk succeeding generations being lulled into complacency that their freedom is something deserved, something part of the package of life, and something not worth fighting for as a man or woman. The UN Charter, US Declaration of Independence, and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms aside, there are many evil and dark forces out there which would deny those rights for their own blind ambition- the current crises created by Vladimir Putin, Boko Haram and ISIL in Ukraine, Central Africa, and Nigeria come to mind- without regard for the human cost of those ambitions.

Our duties as a citizen of the world is to be mindful of such trends and conditions, honest in our assessment of them, and supportive of any efforts to suppress or otherwise abate such dangers, which are dangers to all humanity and not just those directly effected by such events; this is a principle established at the trials of Nuremburg and other such venues which have often declared that prevention of such tragedies is much better than the cost of stopping them once in play. Could you agree with that?

Then you must agree that a citizen of the world should be at least passingly familiar with the nuts and bolts of their own armed forces, the skills and techniques used by those forces, and the content of the character of those who man those positions. It is the same as vetting a candidate for elected office. How can a citizen do that? In first case, reading, but in second, spending time witnessing their training activities and operations to ensure that they reflect the best your country has to offer for it’s world duties. One of the few places you have this opportunity to do this is at a public airshow, as these activities are often otherwise done in training environments which preclude public scrutiny.

The airshow offers you a chance to view the progression of technology, much as you learned to be a professional writer, starting out with building blocks (words and sentences, Harvards and Tiger Moths) to move forward to current technology (word processors, editorial software, and F-18 Hornets) and create positive forces in the world (free, well thought-out, logical editorial, combat operations) to move things in a positive direction in the world. Where else would you have that chance. While my logic may be a stretch, you can recognize the logical progression, can you not?

You mentioned boys and dreams in your writing. Right now, in your neighborhood, possibly next door to you, there are boys who one day will bear the costs of current un-checked aggression against the forces of good in this world (I’ll count Canada and the US as part of those good forces). Should they not honestly see the hardware, sense the operational tempo, witness the responsibility required for their service before committing their lives to protect you and I? Or should we just levy a draft, compel them to serve with just orders from people we elect, and only tell them, “Dulce et Decorum est, pro Patria Mori?” Look up Wilfred Owen if you don’t know the reference.

Sir, I appreciate you sharing your opinion. It is a bright shining example of the freedoms we have. As I said, I have to disagree with you in your conclusions and what seems to be a less than professional acquaintance with the military which you seem to have. Perhaps it would be a good idea for you, as a professional writer, to go do some research at the airshow, think of some of my points, and perhaps try to walk for a few moments in the shoes of those kind, great forefathers we share who provided you with the opportunity to do so, freely.


Best Regards,
John K. Seidts
Former US Army Special Operations Forces





Incredibly well said Sir. You truly have a gift with words. I had planned to offer a response to this "author" myself, but after reading your writings I could not hope to state my thoughts about this as well as you. Thank you for taking the time and effort to craft so eloquent a reply to such an absurd piece of what passes for journalism. And also, thank you for your service!

- Andrew


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:32 am 
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Forgotten Field's letter is very articulate, and will be quite wasted.

To argue persuasively against somebody, you need to understand the deeply held values that underpin his argument and acknowledge that you won't change them.

FF's argument is based on the premise that war and violence lead to freedom. Many people disagree with that. Especially in Canada, which is proud of the fact that it secured independence from Britain, abolished slavery, etc. without the wars that the U.S. found necessary. While there is a proud military tradition in Canada (mostly about helping others rather than defending Canada; both World Wars and the mideast conflicts fall into this category), many Canadians believe that armed forces only protect security (at best), not freedom; freedom is up to peaceful people to create (or not) within the secure space protected by the military. An analogy is that crediting military forces with freedom is like crediting a company's security guards with how the company is run.

You may disagree. But simply stating your opposing views in strong and articulate language will have no impact.

A more fruitful response might be to concede that there is room for disagreement about the political significance of the airplanes on display, and even that the noise-and-smoke aspects do indeed cater to some of our less mature impulses. So what? The writer probably is a fan of professional ice hockey, which has its share of senseless violence and which many fans love for precisely that reason. Considering the many thousands of people who enjoy the annual spectacle of the airshow, it seems churlish for Fiorito to complain about minor inconveniences.

August


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:43 am 
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I agree with the above two posts.

Really well thought out and written comment. Thanks for that.

The traffic in Toronto is at the point of being hopeless. :roll:

As for the Harvard "crash". I helped recover it from the runway. I also helped the guys remove the damaged components.
They got a great deal of support from the vintage aircraft community. I guess I include the Snowbirds in that group too :D

How many "crashed" aircraft are flying in less than 24 hours? That was great to see all four Harvards of the CHAT back in the game on Saturday.

They are a great bunch of guys!

There was also a monumental amount of work done by many to recover the Mig-17 off of the runway after skidding a tire flat.
Folks helped out and it too flew less than 24 hours after that incident!

Andy


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:14 am 
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DH82EH wrote:
As for the Harvard "crash". I helped recover it from the runway. I also helped the guys remove the damaged components.
They got a great deal of support from the vintage aircraft community. I guess I include the Snowbirds in that group too :D

How many "crashed" aircraft are flying in less than 24 hours? That was great to see all four Harvards of the CHAT back in the game on Saturday.

They are a great bunch of guys!

You got that right Andy!

Looks like it was "Wixers to the rescue" that day. :D

I was the one who brought up the loaner parts from Tillsonburg and we worked until after 11 getting everything fixed.

When Dave sent me photos of the damage that afternoon to see what parts were needed, first thing I noticed was Andy's smiling face looking at the damaged flap :lol:

:drink3:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:33 am 
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August,
Thanks for that. I don't know Canadian culture well, so what you write is new to me and quite illuminating. I think that frame of mind has some validity, the same way I think what Mohandas Gandi had much validity in his works and teachings. I have a friend who believes that we can still maintain our way of life here in the US with non-standing armies, civilian militias, and abolishing the wasteful armed forces we spend so much to maintain. I can see his point, as was articulated by someone who said that when you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

While all of those viewpoints are valid, it doesn't change the oft-repeated, painfully true, yet tragic fact that naked aggression in human history has built and built usually to the point that there is armed conflict. If I could park an F-18 next to my L-5 and strap it on when such things happen, as needed and only as needed, I'd certainly concede the point that armed forces are irrelevant and outdated in the modern world and should be abolished. Unfortunately, we can't upload "War of Liberation" Version 5.0 on our national computer, push the button, and make the naked aggression go away. War is too highly organized and technical to be launched on a false premise. It has real costs- real human costs as well as real economic, social, cultural costs- that must be paid if we are to maintain a mostly free way of life. If you want to live in ignorant bliss of those costs, you are welcome to do so. However, those who are perhaps more sensitive to those true costs should have their ways of celebrating, dealing, or otherwise honoring those who bear the true costs. That is what an airshow is to me. Of course, it's also noise, accidents, and testosterone. But if that is all you are seeing when you see a jet or radial fly by, you are missing the bigger picture.

Truly, other than the poorly researched article he wrote, I really do value what he said. We need that stress and pull and counterpoint to really make a democracy work, no matter how irritating an opinion may be.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:23 am 
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Thanks FF. To be fair to the columnist, I didn't read his column as being anti-military. There are certainly anti-military people in Canada, as in the U.S., and we can agree that they are silly and unrealistic. But there is a big gap between being anti-military and celebrating or honoring the military. When I lived in Canada (first 25 years of my life), my sense was that many people feel neutral about the armed forces. They acknowledge the necessity for any modern nation to have armed forces and occasionally send them to fight, just as we need people to do other hard, dangerous jobs like fishing, logging, mining and construction, but do not assign to the military any special credit for the country's freedoms. So they are fine with the armed forces but not inclined to honor or celebrate them. This I think is the perspective being put forth in the column.

This is an attitude that I don't see as much in the U.S., where there are some naive peaceniks, and it sometimes seems like everybody else feels that the military is a special caste to be honored.

Of course, the columnist did put forth his position in a provocative way. Some columnists think of that as their job.

August


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:31 pm 
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I think he his labeling an airshow with false information. Not ONCE have I EVER heard ANYBODY say that they went to an airshow in hopes to see a crash. This guy is making crap up. :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:28 pm 
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Quote:
As for the Harvard "crash". I helped recover it from the runway. I also helped the guys remove the damaged components.
They got a great deal of support from the vintage aircraft community. I guess I include the Snowbirds in that group too :D

How many "crashed" aircraft are flying in less than 24 hours? That was great to see all four Harvards of the CHAT back in the game on Saturday.

They are a great bunch of guys!


I'll second that. I spoke with some of them at the ToM after party Saturday night, great bunch of guys, class acts all the way around.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:50 pm 
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Wow... Great article... :roll:

When I saw our plane mentioned, I was expecting him to try and claim our plane sprayed agent orange, but had a little chuckle when he talked about the politicians.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:57 pm 
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airnutz wrote:
The articles author also dislikes auto racing...go figure. Something else that disturbs his days whinging whilst knitting his hemp sandals.

I'm guessing he has an allergy to adrenalin. I hope he doesn't ever shower. He could slip and fall, cracking his head open. Life is so risky!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:12 pm 
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There is another overly insensitive line in this guy's 'article', if you could call it that.

"An analogy here is kids playing with fireworks, or idiots in cars racing around a track at high speed; it’s fun until it blows up in your face; or, fun until some idiot gets out of his car, runs onto the track, and gets bumped into oblivion."

The bit that I highlighted in italics I find extremely insensitive, and you just have to assume that he is referring to the accident four weeks ago that tragically claimed the life of young speedway racer Kevin Ward Jr. This 'article' is deplorable... :cry:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:43 pm 
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The author is a typical wimp found in every country where the minority (expects to) rule....but considering his national sport involves firing a half-a-pound of hardened rubber at a human being at speeds in excess of 150 mph....he's just jerking everyone's chain.

Puck off! :butthead:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:32 pm 
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the guy sounds like a real "bump on a log" with a very bad case of hemorroids & needs an industrial sized tube of preparation H,
either that or he flat out needs to get layed.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:14 pm 
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I read, I rolled my eyes, I moved on.
You can't change people's minds when it comes to base concepts like this. Plenty of people don't see the connection between the military and anything good. I tried to engage these types in the past ("You say violence never solved anything? Tell that to a hollocaust survivor," was a favorite of mine for years), with very little effect. People like that aren't going to change our minds on core beliefs, what chance to any of you think any of us will be any more successful against people of their ilk?
Nathan wrote:
I think he his labeling an airshow with false information. Not ONCE have I EVER heard ANYBODY say that they went to an airshow in hopes to see a crash. This guy is making crap up. :roll:
No, he's not. I have heard people say that more than once over the years. They just usually know better than to say it at the airshow. But a co-worker of mine has said several times that he'd love to be able to catch an airshow crash on video someday...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:51 pm 
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I'm afraid p51 is exactly right. And even if audiences do not exactly want to see a crash, they are excited by the risk of a crash. And airshow performers are guilty of playing on this excitement ever since the "death defying, dare-devil" barnstormer days. This goes from the individual civilian acts that promote the risk or danger in what they do ("Masters of Disaster") right on up to the military aerobatic teams who pander to the crowds with head-on opposing solo passes.

Personally, I watch aerobatic acts like a sports match or a piano recital, to enjoy the skill and artistry of the pilot and the beauty of the airplane, and I prefer to pretend they are not riskier than those activities and I don't like it when I see unnecessary risks being taken. But I know that that is not what draws the crowds.

August


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