A trend towards more non-authentic schemes? ...

[Courier Sportster]

mustanglover's link is awesome. I've totally jumped on board, changed my mind. it's ALL good. tasteful, raunchy, I don't care! let the testosterone flow! these birds were flown by healthy men in their early 20's ya know. the styles evolve like hemlines and tie-widths.

[Chappie]

Yankees Air's "GD" is correct correct?

I'd like to put Yankee Lady as my #1 nose art.

1. Yankee Lady
2. Fuddy Duddy
3. 909
4. Thunderbird
5. Aluminum Overcast
6. Texas Raiders
7. Memphis Belle
8. Sentimental Journey
9. Madras Maiden

Now this list takes this thread to a whole new level. I'm asking a question here....other than Memphis Belle, Thunderbird, and 909 are any of the above B-17s faithful recreations of wartime Forts?

Chappie

[mustanglover]

I had only commented on 2 posts that talked about the boobs on the MM nose art not being correct because they could be unnatural and made of silicon.

So I simply posted a link to a Google search of WWII nose art showing exactly that.........unnatural boobs on WWII nose art and I am told to do more research?

That's pretty funny guys...........maybe JE will now understand you guys and sell the B-17 because WIX does not approve of how he wants to portray and display HIS airplane.

Maybe it is time for WIX to re-think its place in history..........oh wait, WIX really has no place in history unlike what the very existence of JE's B-17 does.

Let the man do what he pleases with his own toys..........remember that we will all be watching when you get your toys.

It is his. And to him, it's clearly an expensive toy.

But in reality, it's an historical artifact, worthy of some respect. Not to mention respect to those who cared and maintained her for so much of its history. As Chuckie, she was a memorial to the "can-do" efforts of warbirding supporters across the decades.

Would you be so glib if the NMUSAF painted the Memphis Belle aluminum and put the museum curators's initials on it?

Granted, Chuckie isn't the Belle, but still, it had its place as a unique B-17 and a unique aircraft in warbirding's history.

MM is bad, but Chuckie was ok?

You gotta pick one side or the other......

in reality, it's an historical artifact, worthy of some respect. Not to mention respect to those who cared and maintained her for so much of its history

Ahem, but Chuckie was alright........ahem.

[lmritger]

Now this list takes this thread to a whole new level. I'm asking a question here....other than Memphis Belle, Thunderbird, and 909 are any of the above B-17s faithful recreations of wartime Forts?

Chappie

1. Yankee Lady - Yes, carries accurate 381st BG group and squadron markings
2. Fuddy Duddy - yes, carries accurate 447th BG group and squadron markings
3. 909 - Yes, carries accurate 91st BG group and squadron markings
4. Thunderbird - yes, carries accurate 303rd BG group and squadron markings
5. Aluminum Overcast - yes, carries accurate 389th BG group and squadron markings
6. Texas Raiders - yes, carries accurate 381st BG group and squadron markings
7. Memphis Belle - yes, carries accurate early 91st BG group and squadron markings
8. Sentimental Journey - yes, carries accurate 457th BG group and squadron markings
9. Madras Maiden - Um... well, it has a 381st BG triangle "L" on the tail.

And a couple others:

10. Sally B - carries accurate early Group and Squadron markings for the 91st BG "Memphis Belle", albeit with some "personal flair")
11. Champaign Lady - will carry accurate 401st BG group and squadron markings

Of ones which have had accidents, been redone, or been parked over the past five to ten years, you've got:

Liberty Belle - carried accurate 390th BG group and squadron markings
Pink Lady - carries accurate 384th BG group and squadron markings
Miss Angela - carries accurate 34th BG group and squadron markings
Chuckie (now Madras Maiden) - USED to have accurate 486th BG group and squadron markings. USED TO.

See a trend here?

There's only one out of this whole list where the owner decided to slap his initials on it instead of applying accurate group markings. I almost don't care about the nose art, honestly- during the heated debate over "Diamond Lil/Ol 927", our own beloved Gary Austin helped explain that the aircraft's identity is often important from a marketing perspective, and I can understand wanting something that uniquely identifies the plane as belonging to a person or organization. I may not be a big fan of the style, but I understand it, and I don't think ANYONE has said they disagree with renaming Chuckie to Madras Maiden. But come on- why not show a little creativity and at least a semblance of "accountability" (for lack of a better term) to the history which you purportedly seek to honor with the plane? Why not pick one of the following groups which, to my knowledge, have not ever been honored with a flying B-17:

8th AF:

92nd BG
94th BG
95th BG
96th BG
100th BG (Seriously! How is that even possible that NO ONE has ever done a 100th BG B-17?)
305th BG
306th BG
351st BG
388th BG
487th BG
490th BG
493rd BG

Or ANYTHING from the 15th AF, for that matter.

It's not like my opinion, or the opinions of the many folks who think his shiny new paint job sucks mean jack squat to the guy who strokes the checks to keep it in the air... it's just incredibly disappointing to see someone turn this fantastic icon of American history into his own personal ego trip. You would think owning the entire museum, dozens of historic aircraft, and the airport from whence they fly would be enough to satisfy that ego, but apparently not.

I can't WAIT to see how he repaints the Fw 190.



Lynn

[Chappie]

1. Yankee Lady - Yes, carries accurate 381st BG group and squadron markings
2. Fuddy Duddy - yes, carries accurate 447th BG group and squadron markings
3. 909 - Yes, carries accurate 91st BG group and squadron markings
4. Thunderbird - yes, carries accurate 303rd BG group and squadron markings
5. Aluminum Overcast - yes, carries accurate 389th BG group and squadron markings
6. Texas Raiders - yes, carries accurate 381st BG group and squadron markings
7. Memphis Belle - yes, carries accurate early 91st BG group and squadron markings
8. Sentimental Journey - yes, carries accurate 457th BG group and squadron markings
9. Madras Maiden - Um... well, it has a 381st BG triangle "L" on the tail.

And a couple others:

10. Sally B - carries accurate early Group and Squadron markings for the 91st BG "Memphis Belle", albeit with some "personal flair")
11. Champaign Lady - will carry accurate 401st BG group and squadron markings

Of ones which have had accidents, been redone, or been parked over the past five to ten years, you've got:

Liberty Belle - carried accurate 390th BG group and squadron markings
Pink Lady - carries accurate 384th BG group and squadron markings
Miss Angela - carries accurate 34th BG group and squadron markings
Chuckie (now Madras Maiden) - USED to have accurate 486th BG group and squadron markings. USED TO.


Lynn

Thanks Lynn. Good to know! I too am surprised that there are no Bloody 100th Forts flying today. I'm fairly close (3.5 hours) to MAM and have covered many of their aircraft for Warbird Digest and when I found out that Chuckie was a Pathfinder I sent Yagen information about the 91st BG/324th BS Pathfinder 'Evenin' Folks, How Y'All (DF*D), since I have a single faded photo of my grandfather sitting in this aircraft. What could have been.

Chappie

[Mark Allen M]

Let the man do what he pleases with his own toys.........

I see no one telling the man what he should be doing with his toys. Just expressing a few thoughts about his toys. Nothing wrong with that.

MM is bad

Correct

but Chuckie was ok?

Correct

You gotta pick one side or the other......

No you don't.

Ahem, but Chuckie was alright........ahem.

Again correct, see Lynn's post above. 100% correct? Not quite but d*mn close and certainly the effort was there for the right results and correct intent.

As for watching for my toys? Come on over! Why watch when you can come over and jump right up on one ...

Lynn thanks for the breakdown. Good stuff.

[k5083]

Interesting if slightly perilous discussion. I think Lynn's list, plus mustanglover's point that if you don't like MM you can't like Chuckie, points to the inadequacy of a binary "authentic" / "non-authentic" typology. Very few paint jobs are perfectly authentic, yet many of us can see that MM is not the same as Chuckie. To be a little more textured about this you might assign letter grades to warbird paint schemes.

A = all colors and markings authentic and for correct variant. (A+ if accurate to the specific airframe).

B = generally accurate, minor deviations or anachronistic/personal markings generally in keeping with period style, or accurate but for wrong variant

C = significant departures from original in coloring, markings, style of personal markings

D = most colors and markings inauthentic or incorrect

F = not really even trying

So of the currently flying B-17s in the U.S., Thunderbird would get an A, 909 would get an A- or B+ (sponsorship credits), most would get a B (mostly for faux nose art), and Chuckie/MM has just gone from a solid B to a C- or D.

August

[Warbird Kid]

Heres a question that some of you Virginia Beach dwellers might know. If Jerry Yagen had been able to keep Chuckie, would he have repainted her? Or kept her in the same scheme?

Also, are there any plans for the B-17 to receive the pathfinder parts it once had while in service? Wouldn't that be doing the airframe justice?

[Mark Allen M]

Chuckie/MM has just gone from a solid B to a C- or D.August

I would have loved you as one of my college professors, I would have graduated a straight A student.

Here's a couple of "tribute" videos to Madras Maiden. Wishing much success and good flying down the road.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhs5VOioK-w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n96HrVP9dd4

[lmritger]

Heres a question that some of you Virginia Beach dwellers might know. If Jerry Yagen had been able to keep Chuckie, would he have repainted her? Or kept her in the same scheme?

Also, are there any plans for the B-17 to receive the pathfinder parts it once had while in service? Wouldn't that be doing the airframe justice?

The long term plan was to repaint the B-17, but a suitable scheme had not been chosen- I sent him info on a number of B-17s crewed by local boys, as he likes to pay tribute to veterans from the area whenever possible, and I know others sent him information as well. Discussion was also underway about how to bring it to PFF status- Jerry had the ball turret installed along with a chin turret not long after he got her, but was open to the idea of getting the PFF gear put in as I recall.

Indicative of Jerry Yagen's class and sensitivity to the impact a paint scheme has, he agreed to keep the B-17 as "Chuckie" for quite a while in honor of Doc Hospers and his gracious wife Chuckie, and even had Chuckie Hospers herself as a guest during the 2011 Warbirds over the Beach show as a guest of honor. I had the good fortune to meet and speak with Chuckie at the show and she genuinely appreciated what Jerry was doing with the aircraft, and his efforts to honor her late husband's legacy in keeping the Fort in the air.

I've not heard whether Chuckie was invited out to Madras for the unveiling this past weekend, or whether her input was sought or considered prior to the transformation.




Even my daughter liked Chuckie:




So I fully and proudly admit my unashamed bias in this conversation- it was an incredible thrill to have this amazing aircraft nearby, and a sad loss for myself and lots of other folks in the area when she was sold and flown westwards last year. Change is inevitable, and I get that, but I had hoped she would be going to an organization whose owner had the same sort of grace and vision as Jerry Yagen. Shows ya what I know, huh?


Lynn

[Chappie]

Heres a question that some of you Virginia Beach dwellers might know. If Jerry Yagen had been able to keep Chuckie, would he have repainted her? Or kept her in the same scheme?

Also, are there any plans for the B-17 to receive the pathfinder parts it once had while in service? Wouldn't that be doing the airframe justice?

August- I like your grading system.

WarbirdKid- When I went down on that frigid (15 F) Saturday in January I briefly spoke to Jerry and he said he'd keep the scheme out of respect to Doc Hospers. I still sent him the information about it being a Pathfinder and the photo of my grandfather. To Jerry's credit Chuckie did leave his charge looking like a proper G-model.

Chappie

[p51]

Tallichet's 17 was painted as a 100BG ship for a while, if memory serves...

[kalamazookid]

August- I love your grading system! That's what I was trying to say in significantly more words, haha.

[jcos]

Fuddy Duddy is accurate i believe, the nose art and marking are authentic from an acutal craft that was lost to flak or a midair, can't remember which off the top of my head. Although I'm sure it wasnt highly polished, although IMO it ls the best looking Fort flying today. I miss it's Geneseo days as I live 5 mins from there

[Warbird Kid]

Fuddy Duddy is accurate i believe, the nose art and marking are authentic from an acutal craft that was lost to flak or a midair, can't remember which off the top of my head. Although I'm sure it wasnt highly polished, although IMO it ls the best looking Fort flying today. I miss it's Geneseo days as I live 5 mins from there

Something unforeseen will happen and that B-17 will return to Geneseo permanently. Don't know how it will happen, I just know. It belongs there.