USS Olympia and matter of longterm survival of air artifacts

[Robbie Roberts]

I cant imagine them sinking the olympia but then again the navy scrapped the original Enterprise.both are criminal in my mind.can you believe they scrapped the enterprise.fought and survived the entire pacific war.the fact it was scrapped still amazes me

And they used one of the ORIGINAL aircraft carriers, Saratoga, in the A-bomb tests at Bikini. Dam-n Shame

Scott

The Sara was a shame, but remember that in 1946-47 we had how many fleet carriers. The war was just over and no body was rushing to remember it. The Sara was only 25 or so years old and the Enterprise CV-6 was only 20 years old when it went to the breakers in Kearny NJ. The Olympia is over a hundred and played historical parts in 2 Wars.

And she was a training ship at Annapolis during the Second World War as well...

Scott

[Mark_Pilkington]

Why is there no US Navy museum to take care of these things? Every service has one if not service air museums for old planes but no museum that preserved and presents to history of the old ships. Surely this could be justified as a recruiting tool and to communicate the esprit de coups for active service personnel. What would the annual costs be as ratio to the daily costs of a carrier fleet?

Well, there sort of is.

This would fall under the US Navy's Naval History and Heritage Command.
http://www.history.navy.mil/index.html

This Command operates 12 museums. The Constitution is one of them. The Command preserves the submarine Nautilus in CT. It appears that the Navy used to preserve and operate the Wisconsin in Hampton Roads but has transferred it to the city.

So your question is why doesn't the NHHC preserve more ships.

I guess they have weighed the heritage, publicity, recruiting, and training value of maintaining old ships, and no doubt the Olympia in particular, in view of the cost and available resources and concluded that it just isn't worth it. They seem to feel that they get more bang for buck in preserving pieces of ships, such as gun turrets or sub sails.

It would be interesting to know more about the thought process and economics involved. One problem with heritage preservation of large, high-maintenance artifacts is that the benefits are vague and intangible whereas the costs are very specific and very tangible. Many of the benefits accrue not to the Navy but to the society at large. So they are externalities from the Navy's perspective.

We live in a time when most parts of government have been required to cut back, even in economically trivial areas that are more for show than for any real budget impact, and activities ancillary to the department's main mission are the first to go. This is probably not a good time to be lobbying for the navy to expand its side business of historical caretaking. Government support of culture, whether it be art, history, literature, etc., generally is under siege. It is left to communities, corporations, and philanthropists to pick up the ball of preserving even some of the most important artifacts. The Olympia is a big ball.

Temporary economic woes aside, this is a wealthy society that would seem to have enough surplus resources to preserve quite a lot of historical assets like this. It's a matter of getting the various constituencies that would benefit from saving a ship like this to acknowledge their interests and pony up.

August

Most of us understand the cost and condition difference between maintaining a static airframe undercover (or even on outside static display) as against restoring and maintaining the airframe in airworthy condition.

Unfortunately the maintenance of a steel hull and superstructure sitting in a salt water environment is nearly the same as an operating ship, even the boiler and engine is dead.

Clearly the solution for "some" of these historic ships in the US (and elsewhere) is to permanently dry dock them away from the salt water in an earth/concrete berth and give up on them being floating "ships", and move them into being "historical artefacts".

The ideal outcome would be to have them sufficiently away from salt water than the superstructure was away from salt from sea breezes, of course there will still be high maintenance due to external display, and the hull may need some treatment to stop it rotting from contact with the earth, but it becomes a civil engineering structure to maintain not a marine/sea worthy issue.

Of course once that is done it tends to lock the location indefinately, so it would be better to place them in federal land under control of the Navy than to have them on city land that later attracts re-development interest.

If we dont "keep" some of these early ships now, they certainly wont exist for future generations if we try to preserve them as "reefs".

regards

Mark Pilkington

[Rocketeer]

Maybe the Olympia could be towed through a fresh water, navigable river and be moored or docked in a large, fresh water lake that is further inland.

[k5083]

I'm sure it could. Any of several cities in the Great Lakes could accommodate it. But which of them wants it? The trouble with inland cities is, they tend not to have strong connections with the Navy, which is the main reason a city would want to maintain and display a warship. Absent that, you need a city that fancies it as a more general military or technological artifact.

August

[brucev]

on the Naval ships in freshwater note, how well do the USS Cobia (in Manitowoc) and USS Silversides (in Muskegon MI) do in terms of visitors and general interest? I lived in Grand Rapids MI for several yrs and made the trip up to Muskegon 2 or 3 times in the late 80s. At that time the museum consisted of the Silversides moored to a dock and a ticket shack for tours. I visited again 2yrs ago (after hours unfortunately) and the whole area seemed a bit run down though they do have a decent looking (museum?) building now.

Didn't make over to look on my last visit but doesn't Muskegon now have the LST 933 as a seperate museum as well?

[ArtS]

I guess I'm missing something. As far as I know the Olympia is docked on the Delaware in Philly. This is a fresh water location.

Regards,

Art S.

[carlisle1926]

This entire idea of scraping the Olympia or any other of these ships is just plain sick. I had the fortune of getting on the Olympia about 15 years ago. The ship is as much as a work of art as it it a part of history. The interior woodwork was mind boggling. That isn't that big of a ship at all. It could be brought on land and have a hanger built over it -like a zeppelin hanger. Just leave the ship unrestored in the hanger. It would stop all decay and it would cost far less to build the hanger.

I'm a huge fan- almost a zealot for the USS TEXAS. I grew up right down the street from it and developed my huge respect for historical artifacts because of it. The ship has certainly inspired many others too. It is almost a family member. I've watched it slowly rot away in the brackish water its in and from the very caustic air from all of the nearby refineries dropping corrosives on it. Nothing made of steel can survive in the air of East Houston. They spent huge amounts of money on it in the late 80's and early 1990's to "restore" it. It has massive rot in/on it again and it will cost huge amounts again. If it had been dry docked on land and had a huge hanger built- it wouldn't need restoration again now. Each time it is restored, it has so much original metal lobbed off and replaced, that eventually it will be a huge replica- if they don't murder it first and have send it to the scrappers first.
Are there no multi-millionaires out there that couldn't just buy the Olympia and personally save her?

[Dave Lindauer]

Wouldn't Olympia be a great addition to the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry? It would be a bigger project than their fabulous effort in bringing the U-505 under cover (particularly with respect to height), but at least there is precedent, a fresh water environment, local Navy presence, and a huge population base.

[kalamazookid]

Wouldn't Olympia be a great addition to the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry? It would be a bigger project than their fabulous effort in bringing the U-505 under cover (particularly with respect to height), but at least there is precedent, a fresh water environment, local Navy presence, and a huge population base.

I was going to say it would look great anchored by Navy Pier if that could be arranged. I can't imagine that the Museum of Science and Industry has space for it on its current campus, but with the type of resources they have that would be an interesting move. Battleship Park in Quincy, MA might also be a good place if they're looking to move her.

on the Naval ships in freshwater note, how well do the USS Cobia (in Manitowoc) and USS Silversides (in Muskegon MI) do in terms of visitors and general interest? I lived in Grand Rapids MI for several yrs and made the trip up to Muskegon 2 or 3 times in the late 80s. At that time the museum consisted of the Silversides moored to a dock and a ticket shack for tours. I visited again 2yrs ago (after hours unfortunately) and the whole area seemed a bit run down though they do have a decent looking (museum?) building now.

Didn't make over to look on my last visit but doesn't Muskegon now have the LST 933 as a seperate museum as well?

The LST is actually 393 and is a veteran of Sicily, Italy, and Normandy. They have their own separate museum, open only in the summer. I highly recommend taking a tour if you're in the area, it's worth it.

I don't know the current situation with the Silversides is in terms of visitors and interest. Last time I toured was probably 5-6 years ago while I was visiting relatives in the area. They still run the engines 1-3 times a year, something I was lucky enough to experience once. Not sure how they do numbers-wise or what the building is for. They also have an old Coast Guard ship (USCGC McLane) that participated in a depth charge attack and sinking of a Japanese submarine in the Bering Sea.

Back to the Olympia, my biggest concern is how to tell the story of the ship that will make the general public care. I think one of the biggest reasons there isn't as much interest in the ship is that there is no longer a direct link to it in terms of people. There isn't anyone alive from that era. This might sound stupid, but people can relate to events if they know someone who experienced a part of it. I think that's why there's more of an interest in World War II and even Vietnam. A lot of people know someone who was in those wars and can see the link there. I think that's why there needs to be more of a focus on people with respect to the Olympia. You can tell the story all you want with facts and figures, but I feel the primary focus should be the people who built, maintained and served on the ship. Just my $.02.

[Jollygreenslugg]

Back to the Olympia, my biggest concern is how to tell the story of the ship that will make the general public care. I think one of the biggest reasons there isn't as much interest in the ship is that there is no longer a direct link to it in terms of people. There isn't anyone alive from that era. This might sound stupid, but people can relate to events if they know someone who experienced a part of it. I think that's why there's more of an interest in World War II and even Vietnam. A lot of people know someone who was in those wars and can see the link there.

G'day kalamazookid,

That doesn't sound stupid at all. The personal link is very important in determining the success or relevance of a particular preservation effort. As an example, I have an interest in electric streetcars/trolley cars. The museum movement for these vehicles sprang up in the 1940s and 1950s when many systems in the US were being closed down. As many systems had been closed in the 1920s and 1930s, the later closures reminded people of what was disappearing, and this prompted people into collecting trolley cars and establishing museums and demonstration lines. They were popular party because people remembered them and felt that they'd lost something when they were taken away.

A number of these museums flourished in the 1960s and 1970s and have seen a decline since then. With streetcars not being in the realm of younger people's experience (more or less), there is less interest and many museums are struggling for volunteers. There are exceptions, but there is nothing like the level of interest today that there was half a century ago. So, you've nailed one very important factor, one which has parallels in the aviation preservation world today.

As an example, the level of interest in First World War aviation is fairly small, almost being a niche market. In the 1950s and around then, the interest was greater. Reading 1950s magazines shows interest in forty year-old Great War aircraft, while there was less interest in the Mustangs and Fortresses of ten years earlier. Places like Old Rheinbeck is a good example of the results from the 1950s interest in 1910s aviation. This can be seen in the popularity of 1900-1915 as seen in 1960s movies, such as Meet Me In St Louis and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

I wonder if this is because people who are in a position to preserve things are usually keen to preserve things that remind them of a 'golden age', often their own childhood. People can be interested in things that they remember which aren't around any longer.

Thanks for raising this point, kalamazookid. I'd be interested in people's thoughts.

Cheers,
Matt

[Garth]

Back to the Olympia, my biggest concern is how to tell the story of the ship that will make the general public care.

My take is that the ship should be co-located with another, more generally appealing, attraction.

Olympia, which I visited last Fall, is stuck between a rock and a hard place. She's in Philly, but away from the main tourist attractions. The maritime museum she's attached to is ok, but nothing that's going to draw a lot of people. And sitting right across the river is the USS New Jersey - which is MUCH more impressive and therefore inviting when it comes to people choosing to spend their precious time.

The hard thing is figuring out where she'd be a good fit, in a situation where her upkeep could be maintained via common revenues from a larger attraction AND where people are much more sensitive about how they spend their disposable income. Is there any preserved historic ship that isn't having some kind of financial difficulty right now? Besides Intrepid (I think)?

Given her historic importance and relevance, it might be best if the USN took her over. While she wouldn't get a huge number of visitors, she could be parked at the US Navy Yard in Washington DC (next to the Barry) and act as a draw to THAT museum (which is the most over-looked one in the city). Given that the Navy is now opening their "Riverwalk" along the Eastern Branch/Anacostia River from Nationals Stadium to 11th St, she might even do better in terms of visitors than what she currently gets up in Philly.

[old iron]

Yes, nostalgia - which can be perhaps defined as that which a 60-year-old remembers from his youth - plays a big role in establishing interst and price. This is easily seen in cars, where a 1965 Mustang might command a higher price than some beautiful brassy sole surviving representative of an entire manufacturer from the 1910s. Some years ago, a rare WWI Italian Ansaldo, nicely restored, left the US for Italy and $150,000. For far too many, if people do not remember it from their own lifetimes there is little interest.

This is the point that I made when originally starting this thread 100 messages ago: The Olympia could be a harbinger for many of the smaller WWII aircraft collections. If there is a serious risk of losing an extraordinarily unusual pre-WWI warship with a patriotic combat record, then nothing is safe given another fifty years.

[TAdan]

Looks like there is an effort underway to bring Olympia to Parris Island...

http://www.islandpacket.com/2011/05/10/ ... n-uss.html

[old iron]

An update on the USS Olympia. Still in Philadelphia, with an extension for four more years. But still a long ways from getting needed care in a dry dock.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/A_renewed_campaign_to_keep_historic_Olympia_afloat.html .

[APG85]

Beautiful ship. I hope something can be done long-term for it...