I was thinking.... Flugwerke Fw 190D?

[Joe Scheil]

I enjoy discussion, so no harm is meant to anyone who posts in this thread, unless you are a member of.....just kidding!


Its absolutely impossible to state that a Ta-152 or an FW-190D WILL NEVER FLY. Just 10 years ago there were no Buffalo's, flying KI-43's restored original Fw-190 that was recovered as an almost perfect original...No Hawk 75, CR-42 ECT... There are more quiet projects aborning now than ever before, with restorations taking center stage for their authenticity. John Lane's Corsair restoration, the British FASTENERS Spitfire, the continuing evolution of the sport... Twenty years ago all of the RAF gate guard Spits were considered too far gone, and now nearly all are flying, and the ones that have crashed are only temporarily destroyed. this industry is far healthier than many can imagine. I fully approve of recreating airframes with new subassemblies, and have no problem with anything done in this industry. However, the direction that this thread was going does not encompass the restoration field. I never insinuated that Merlins were as common as Jumos, but I do believe that there are enough remaining to supply a flyer or two for a limited time. And who knows, there are probably a lot of things out there that are "unknown" to those of us that are spectators. The worst outgrowth of the suspicion that "they are all gone" is that good original hidden projects, like the Hawk 75 for instance are questioned when they surface as "probably new build". To keep speculators out there down, most projects have to go underground. Because nobody wants to say that they are building a flyable D-9, engine and engine component prices stay reasonable. Once somebody announces they are putting one together, every mantlepiece piston goes on the block for outragous sums. I don't intend to attack anyone, but if its out there, it can be done...and there is a lot out there. To predict that everything will be institutionalized is also folly, as flying warbirds drive restoration, not static display aquisition. The biggest danger to warbirds is legislation, nothing else can stop them...Oh and fuel... and safety.....oh and.....

[O.P.]

To keep speculators out there down, most projects have to go underground. Because nobody wants to say that they are building a flyable D-9, engine and engine component prices stay reasonable. Once somebody announces they are putting one together, every mantlepiece piston goes on the block for outragous sums.

Good call. I never thought of that. I'm going to remember that when I start my project in the next decade or two.

To predict that everything will be institutionalized is also folly, as flying warbirds drive restoration, not static display aquisition. The biggest danger to warbirds is legislation, nothing else can stop them...Oh and fuel... and safety.....oh and.....

I agree with the second part 100 percent, "flying warbirds drive restoration".For the first part, some things are kinda occuring to my beer stained mind, In the next few years, there will actually be 100 year old production aircraft flying around. I like that. I'm not sure how many hours an aircraft can fly before it's just plain tired, but I'm guessing that a lot of them are going to reach that hour in the next fifty years. I'm not sure what would be done at that point, but a complete restoration would probably leave very little of the original airplane left. I read that the FAA or the Navy did some testing on T28's to find the upper limit on airframe time, they figured it exceeded 35,000 hours. Thats cool. Most of the high time T28's I see rarely exceed 17,000 hours, thats after 50 years of flying. At some point, someones going to make the call, take a pristine, good example of an aircraft, and do a complete restore/replacement of just about everything it consists of, because it has reached a fantastically high time, so it can keep flying, or institutionalize it and build a new plane. I hope they keep the original flying, but I think as time goes on, that won't be the case, because of value,insurance,ect.

Thats where I'm coming from. Airplanes are still a pretty young thing. We're going to be finding out a lot of stuff in the next few years about the warbirds we love. Not the least of which is public perception of a 120 year old airplane flying over their house. I hope I'm wrong.

[dj51d]

Not the least of which is public perception of a 120 year old airplane flying over their house.

Bring it on! I for one will welcome the sight of a 120 year old airplane flying in 30 or 40 years, over my house or otherwise.

[O.P.]

Not the least of which is public perception of a 120 year old airplane flying over their house.

Bring it on! I for one will welcome the sight of a 120 year old airplane flying in 30 or 40 years, over my house or otherwise.

Me too!
Butttt....I get a different feeling about GA and Warbirds from the people I gotta be around everyday. I'm a neophite/student pilot. I started this because I want to fly warbirds. I tell people this, and they think I'm crazy. It's like I'm doing an extreme/junk sport, only I can die. My best friend said he wouldn't fly with me until I had a half a zillion hours. My perception, of the perception of the general public, about anything less than a 747, is bad, you can get killed. I've tried to tell them that to get the certificate you gotta know your sh*t, or I've tried to tell them that nobody wants to die, and they don't want people around who's going to kill them, doesn't matter. About old airplanes, I say, "It's gotta be annualed, it's gotta be all this kinda stuff, get all these inspections,doesn't matter. They think of airplanes like they are cars. 50 years old, it's gotta be a dangerous piece of junk. I've stopped talking about it. It's kind of a bummer. It's the best thing I've done yet. I think that the general perception of GA is that it is dangerous, and it causes a lot of noise. Somethings gotta change, overall, or warbirds and GA in general is gonna be in trouble in the next few years.

Enough Rambling, back on topic.......

How would you get our fellow wixers allison, inverted for the D9?

There will never be a Fw 190D or Ta 152 flown... ever. There just aren't any. I also didn't realize Jumos were as common as Merlins. I would of course love to see a new build Dora fly with a Jumo if only for the sound of the powerplant. I would love to see a Bf 109 or a Bf 110 flying original Daimler-Benz engines. At the very least it would be a rarity. I just want to see them fly.

So with what you were saying, when the new build Me 262's appear at airshows they should be turned away because they don't have Jumo 004's?

A Jumo 213 engine could be found and a new D-9 airframe could be built, but I think getting a data plate is the issue. As I understand it, the UK D-9 is going to be a data plate rebuild from a crash. If FlugWerk were able to source some 213 spares in same manner they have with DB engines, I would not object to seeing them starting a D-9 production run. (Perhaps they could do the D-14 variant with the DB engines.)

Are the late war or license-built Jumo 211s similar in weight and dimesions to the 213s? I believe I'd recently read that the post-war Avias were unstable and tricky to fly because of the heavy Jumo 211s.

[DaveM2]

Flugwerk have a new build D-9 for sale..don't think they have a suitable engine for it, but haven't checked the website lately. The Bende new build project did, I believe, have a Jumo 213 that was able to be made servicable.....for a price.
The Lacey D-9 project in the U.K. has the identity taken from a high impact D-9 crash site....bits of alloy and a data plate ( a picture appears in 'Green Hearts , First with the Dora 9' by Axel Urbanke ), but this is apparently nothing to do with Flugwerk.

Dave

[Scott Rose]

14 years later...

[Michel Lemieux]

Zombie thread.....

So whatever happened to the FlugWerk D-9 at Stalion????

I remember the Allison engine being ran once....

[Steve Nelson]

Is that the same one I saw at Jerry Yagen's place in 2014? Sorry, I was in a bit of a rush, and this was the only pic I got.

SN

[DH82EH]

Yes.
Same bird.
Kermit Weeks posted a Youtube of a visit to Vintage V-12's.
In it there was some footage of a Jumo 213 meant for this airframe.

Another Flugwerk Dora project is held by The Voormezeele family in Belgium, complete with a Jumo 213.
Very little published about that.

Such a fabulous looking machine. ALL business.

Andy

[DoraNineFan]

Yes.
Same bird.
Kermit Weeks posted a Youtube of a visit to Vintage V-12's.
In it there was some footage of a Jumo 213 meant for this airframe.

Another Flugwerk Dora project is held by The Voormezeele family in Belgium, complete with a Jumo 213.
Very little published about that.

Such a fabulous looking machine. ALL business.

Andy

Correct. Looking at the video from Vintage V12s the Jumo is clean but there is more work to do before it is ready. From what I have read the plane was supposed to be shipped to Meier Motors eventually to refit the Jumo and other work, but it is a low priority project for Yagen so it will be a while.

Any updates on the Vormezeele project would be appreciated.

A third Flugwerk Dora fuselage was produced and I have been confused whether it ended up at White 1 and now with The Collings Foundation for their Dora project, or if it is with another project. I believe Gosshawk was to be starting on the Dora for Collings at some point.

[Scott Rose]

Zombie thread.....

So whatever happened to the FlugWerk D-9 at Stalion????

I remember the Allison engine being ran once....

Yup...

[DoraNineFan]

Zombie thread.....

So whatever happened to the FlugWerk D-9 at Stalion????

I remember the Allison engine being ran once....

Yup...

zombiethread.jpg

It was ran at Stallion and I think it has been ran a few times while in storage with Yagen. I believe there were issues getting the Allison flight certified.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt0R_Og48Z0

[DH82EH]

Yes.
Same bird.
Kermit Weeks posted a Youtube of a visit to Vintage V-12's.
In it there was some footage of a Jumo 213 meant for this airframe.

Another Flugwerk Dora project is held by The Voormezeele family in Belgium, complete with a Jumo 213.
Very little published about that.

Such a fabulous looking machine. ALL business.

Andy

Correct. Looking at the video from Vintage V12s the Jumo is clean but there is more work to do before it is ready. From what I have read the plane was supposed to be shipped to Meier Motors eventually to refit the Jumo and other work, but it is a low priority project for Yagen so it will be a while.

Any updates on the Vormezeele project would be appreciated.

A third Flugwerk Dora fuselage was produced and I have been confused whether it ended up at White 1 and now with The Collings Foundation for their Dora project, or if it is with another project. I believe Gosshawk was to be starting on the Dora for Collings at some point.

I seem to recall that third Dora fuse going towards the "Lake Schwerin" D-9
That's another one that there are too few images of. It was a very substantial recovery. Badly twisted, but lots of the good bits looked restore-able.

http://www.daedalus-berlin.de/Fw190D9_bergung.htm

Andy

[DoraNineFan]

[
I seem to recall that third Dora fuse going towards the "Lake Schwerin" D-9
That's another one that there are too few images of. It was a very substantial recovery. Badly twisted, but lots of the good bits looked restore-able.

http://www.daedalus-berlin.de/Fw190D9_bergung.htm

Andy

The Schwerin Dora is coming along, but they are underfunded. I was reading some remarks that they are planning to suspend it from the ceiling and have not been given enough money to restore the cockpit fully. This Dora should have been a full-on restoration that could surpass any other example or perhaps flying but it didn't happen. FlugWerk did help with parts. Before closing shop, White 1 had obtained a Dora wreck and was going to do it as a JV44 example before everything was sold to the Collings Foundation, and this is why I was thinking that White 1 had obtained a Flugwerk D-9 fuselage.