Skyraiders ...

[SpadGuy]

Btw here's another question for you Spad experts. We're there ever cases during the Vietnam Conflict where pilots flew both Huey's and Spads in combat? I ask because my brother-in-law flew both types as well as C-46's before jumping into the airlines. Never got to ask him specifics about it though. Perhaps after coming home from SEA he flew different types. Not sure.

Is it possible, yes, but likely, no. While the AF had some Hueys, they were few and I'm unaware of any Army exchange pilots. Of course the Navy /Marine had some examples of each but I'm assuming he was USAF. Have you tried an advanced search for his name at skyraider.org? Hook has a photo and roster for over 98% of the AF pilots so your bro-in-law would likely be listed there if he was a trained A-1 guy (vs a ride or two in-country).

Ken

If this happened, I would also be very surprised. But, having said that, he might have been a USAF advisor to the VNAF which flew both Hueys and Spads. Strange things happened with those guys.

[Mark Allen M]

To clarify, the bro-in-law flew Huey's in SEA. Also flew in an A-1 but not as PIC. After returning to the states worked for a cargo outfit flying C-46's then eventually United Airlines. No Skyraider piloting.

Sorry didn't get my story straight.

M

[Snake45]

Here's an oft-reproduced picture, but I'm going to tell you exactly what airplane it is, possibly for the first time anywhere: It's 132605, a MAP-spec (VNAF) A-1G, still in USN Gull Gray and White, being operated by USAF for some unknown reason in 1966.

[SpadGuy]

Here's an oft-reproduced picture, but I'm going to tell you exactly what airplane it is, possibly for the first time anywhere: It's 132605, a MAP-spec (VNAF) A-1G, still in USN Gull Gray and White, being operated by USAF for some unknown reason in 1966.

A-1Es operated by the USAF in both the 1st ACS and the 602nd FS(C) under the 34th Tac Group at Bien Hoa were all marked with VNAF markings until March of 1965. These were the most often photographed A-1E/Gs during the early period of the Vietnam War. I am at a slight disadvantage because, although I have seen this photo many times, I do not know when the photo was taken. If the Skyraider has VNAF markings, it would come from this early period.

I have seen MAP spec talk earlier in this thread, and if you are talking about A-1E/Gs that went straight to the VNAF from the USN, then there was outwardly little changed from the USN configuration except for removal of the tail hook and change/modification of comm antennas.

[Snake45]

A-1Es operated by the USAF in both the 1st ACS and the 602nd FS(C) under the 34th Tac Group at Bien Hoa were all marked with VNAF markings until March of 1965. These were the most often photographed A-1E/Gs during the early period of the Vietnam War. I am at a slight disadvantage because, although I have seen this photo many times, I do not know when the photo was taken. If the Skyraider has VNAF markings, it would come from this early period.

I have seen MAP spec talk earlier in this thread, and if you are talking about A-1E/Gs that went straight to the VNAF from the USN, then there was outwardly little changed from the USN configuration except for removal of the tail hook and change/modification of comm antennas.

No, this isn't one of those airplanes (1964-March '65). I have several other good photos of this one, almost certainly on the same mission (exact same loadout). I'll have to check but I believe at least two of those photos are identified as 1966. The first time I saw "1966," I assumed it was an error. The second time, I thought twice. The real oddball thing about this airplane is it's carrying the miniature US stars on both fuselage and wings, the same type normally seen on camouflaged airplanes. I don't think those even existed yet in early 1965.

And then I found a picture of another airplane, another MAP-spec, carrying the same odd markings, also dated 1966. That one is 134997, which was shot down on November 22, 1966, and was Skycraned back to Pleiku, where it apparently went to the boneyard where it was stripped for parts. One photo I have shows it in the junkyard with USAF and the SN in small numbers on the fin, the small, camo-type US stars, and the VNAF-type AT-145 antenna clearly visible. (That pic's on page 91 of the Warbird Tech #13 book, if you have that.)

[SIDSIKO]

A-1G 132605 was probably delivered to the VNAF in late 1965. The exact date is uncertain as the USN changed the way they recorded data on the aircraft cards and as such, a whole years worth of strike data was lost from the records, at least what is available to the historians. It was damaged whilst in VNAF service on the 27th of December 1965, with 522 FS at T-S-N. It was gained by the USAF on the 30th August 1966 and lost with 1st ACS, on the 14th December 1966.

[Ken]

All bomb-dropping Skyraiders have 15 stations. The outer six on each wing are a type of Aero 14. In this photo, these have the jackscrew-type sway braces and, according to T.O. 1A-1E-34-1-1, that makes them Aero 14E ... which coincidentally is the type supposedly found on the USAF A-1E and A-1E-5. I say supposedly, as there are a ton of photos of other models in SEA with the same sway braces. My non-scientific opinion is that the racks went on and off as sets and were swapped from plane to plane in depot (or other) maintenance and no one in theatre cared if they matched the T.O. since the non-jackscrew type essentially functioned the same.

This airplane has the tailhook and antenna setup of a USAF bird despite the VNAF star & bar ... which dates the photo as pre-1965. The outboard stations appear to have 100 lb GP/HE hard bombs, except 6 & 7 which have nape and the "stubs" as (they were called, but officially the Mark 51 racks) which "had" nape just a moment ago. The Aero 3A centerline pylon has a fuel tank, the capacity of which I'm not certain of from this angle, although the finned types were typically 150 or 300 gal.

If you were curious about weight limits, the T.O. states that the 3A was limited to 3600 lbs, Mk 15 3300 lbs, and the Aero 14 500 lbs. More on overall weights later. Photo source unknown.

(Can anyone say what is trailing from the fin just above the tailhook?)

[Snake45]

This airplane has the tailhook and antenna setup of a USAF bird despite the VNAF star & bar ... which dates the photo as pre-1965.

You're getting good at this. Well done! (I think they actually carried the VNAF stars up till Feb or Mar of '65.)

(Can anyone say what is trailing from the fin just above the tailhook?)

I've seen reference--either in a cockpit diagram or some sort of equipment list--to a control for some kind of "trailing antenna." I wonder if that's what this is? (No, I am NOT going to get into research on a "trailing antenna." I only just got the USN/USAF/VNAF VHF/UHF blade antenna bidness sorted out in my head. Not adding any more at this time. )

[Snake45]

A-1Es operated by the USAF in both the 1st ACS and the 602nd FS(C) under the 34th Tac Group at Bien Hoa were all marked with VNAF markings until March of 1965. These were the most often photographed A-1E/Gs during the early period of the Vietnam War. I am at a slight disadvantage because, although I have seen this photo many times, I do not know when the photo was taken. If the Skyraider has VNAF markings, it would come from this early period.

I have seen MAP spec talk earlier in this thread, and if you are talking about A-1E/Gs that went straight to the VNAF from the USN, then there was outwardly little changed from the USN configuration except for removal of the tail hook and change/modification of comm antennas.

No, this isn't one of those airplanes (1964-March '65). I have several other good photos of this one, almost certainly on the same mission (exact same loadout). I'll have to check but I believe at least two of those photos are identified as 1966. The first time I saw "1966," I assumed it was an error. The second time, I thought twice. The real oddball thing about this airplane is it's carrying the miniature US stars on both fuselage and wings, the same type normally seen on camouflaged airplanes. I don't think those even existed yet in early 1965.

And then I found a picture of another airplane, another MAP-spec, carrying the same odd markings, also dated 1966. That one is 134997, which was shot down on November 22, 1966, and was Skycraned back to Pleiku, where it apparently went to the boneyard where it was stripped for parts. One photo I have shows it in the junkyard with USAF and the SN in small numbers on the fin, the small, camo-type US stars, and the VNAF-type AT-145 antenna clearly visible. (That pic's on page 91 of the Warbird Tech #13 book, if you have that.)

Check out the first 14 seconds of this video. I've tried to get the SN off these airplanes (or maybe it's the same one, from both sides) with no success. If it's not 132605 or 134997, it's yet another MAP-spec one marked the same way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcOvMQ17-i4

[levier]

Yeah Ken,

That is the relief tube... I know you know the length of those missions.



B.

[Ken]

Kinda feel like I'm having my ... leg pulled. The E-model Dash One describes a relief tube for each pilot and a third in the rear compartment that is routed via the drift signal chute. It goes on to say that the drift signal chute may not be used when a centerline fuel tank is installed. So, the book says the aft tube exits early and you're saying the forward tube goes all the way to the tail?

[Snake45]

All bomb-dropping Skyraiders have 15 stations. The outer six on each wing are a type of Aero 14. In this photo, these have the jackscrew-type sway braces and, according to T.O. 1A-1E-34-1-1, that makes them Aero 14E ... which coincidentally is the type supposedly found on the USAF A-1E and A-1E-5. I say supposedly, as there are a ton of photos of other models in SEA with the same sway braces. My non-scientific opinion is that the racks went on and off as sets and were swapped from plane to plane in depot (or other) maintenance and no one in theatre cared if they matched the T.O. since the non-jackscrew type essentially functioned the same.

It's also not uncommon at all to see USN Insignia White pylons on otherwise overall gray airplanes, gray ones on Gull Gray airplanes with white undersides, and I'm pretty sure I've even spotted a few Glossy Sea Blue ones mixed in, too. Here's a prime example of white pylons on an (apparently just overhauled) oveall gray one:

[Ken]

I had this photo of a model in my files and was surprised at how well it mimicked the photo you shared ... they even both appear to have the USN roller-style tailwheel. (Did the VNAF eventually stop repeating the serial below the horizontal?)

Add one antenna and lose the tailhook, looks fab! One other small point is that I'm not aware of a tendency for the A-1 speedbrakes to droop after a loss of hydraulic pressure, but I imagine it was a nice touch for the modeler to display his work.

[Snake45]

I had this photo of a model in my files and was surprised at how well it mimicked the photo you shared ... they even both appear to have the USN roller-style tailwheel. (Did the VNAF eventually stop repeating the serial below the horizontal?)

Add one antenna and lose the tailhook, looks fab! One other small point is that I'm not aware of a tendency for the A-1 speedbrakes to droop after a loss of hydraulic pressure, but I imagine it was a nice touch for the modeler to display his work.

Ken, here's that model. I don't think I've ever seen a Skyraider on the ground with the speed brakes out. Nor the flaps lowered like a P-51, either, come to think of it.

http://www.arcair.com/Gal5/4501-4600/ga ... es/00.shtm

And here's another very nice one, painted correctly in overall 36440 gray (no white undersides), though he also missed the AT-145 antenna:

http://www.modelingmadness.com/review/viet/camad6.htm

And here's my own humble attempt at a VNAF A-1, built about 30 years ago. I also missed the AT-145:

[Ken]

All bomb-dropping Skyraiders have 15 stations ... Can anyone say what is trailing from the fin just above the tailhook?

When I said "all" and gave the weight limits, I was actually referring to E/G/H/J. Earlier versions had 15 stations but used some different pylons.

And the bulb on the tail, unless confirmed otherwise, would most likely be the shape at the end of the 60' trailing wire antenna for the HF-103 radio. Anybody remember Gann's story where this piece was called the "fish"? Also, if it interests you, some great HF static (if you've never used an HF radio) was part of a discussion Speedy & I had in one thread on the Iranian Hostage/Eagle Claw mission ... but I digress.

Ken