Skyraider Questions

Ken · **Posted:** Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:40 pm

What's the serial of the lone VNAF EA-1F? I scrolled through Baugher and couldn't find it.

Ken

Snake45 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm **Posts:** 864

Ken wrote:

What's the serial of the lone VNAF EA-1F? I scrolled through Baugher and couldn't find it.

Ken

132576. Number came from the Jackson Aero book. One or the other is possibly in error.

There's another possibility, too. The EA-1F on the carrier with the load of obviously VNAF-bound airplanes (pic in the other thread) might be 132576, while the BuNo I cited there is actually another airplane marked exactly the same way. (I found that VAW-13 markings were very consistent, perhaps one "711"-marked airplane replaced the other). That EA-1F is still carrying its USN markings and electronic equipment, but maybe someone got its SN from a cargo manifest of that carrier and just assumed it was going to VNAF with the others.

It's still a mystery as to why that EA-1F is on that carrier at that time. USN was still actively operating EA-1Fs at that point. (In fact, -1Fs might have been the last Skyraiders USN operated in Vietnam--I'd have to check on that.)

Snake45 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm **Posts:** 864

Snake45 wrote:

The caption on page 58 of Hukee's book is what set this whole inquiry of mine off. The same airplane, different photo, is in the Skyraider thread here, and I've located a third pic of it, too. That's what set me to looking to see if I could find any more of these "VNAF-spec" E/Gs in USAF service. And lo and behold, I've found them. I think I'm up to about a half-dozen so far--I'd have to check my list for the exact number.

Took a quick scan through my list today and amazingly, I've photos of eight different Skyraiders in USAF service with the VNAF-type VHF antennas and no tailhooks. The pics run from 1965 up to at least 1968 (in camo) or possibly later.

And at this point, I've pretty much abandoned my initial theory that these were the so-called "E-5s."

Ken · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:15 pm

Remain calm and keep Skyraiding ...

Snake45 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm **Posts:** 864

Ken wrote:

Remain calm and keep Skyraiding ...

Sittin' here waiting for that Mutza book to arrive. I also ordered the old Dorr Balentine book. I HAVE that book but have torn up the house looking for it in the last week, No Joy. Found a used copy on the net for less than $10 shipped, so I bought it. Yeah, I know, I'll find mine about five minutes after it gets here....

Get those two books logged into my photo-database, and then three websites, and then Project Fat Face is done.

Next, I start looking for all the VNAF gray Skyraiders. Already have the -5s on file now, of course, but I need to go back and get the single-seats.

And then, maybe, the French AD-4s. Or perhaps the French/VNAF and/or Thai Bearcats. Something tells me tracking the BuNos on all those in photos won't be as easy as it is with the USAF/VNAF Skyraiders....

Ken · **Posted:** Fri May 02, 2014 5:49 pm

Snake45 wrote:

Ken wrote:

(I'd be curious to know if any G, when fully modded by the USAF, earned a new title of "E" however Mutza's serial listing doesn't tend to support this.) Finally, if you thought you could pick out a G based on its lack of full blue room windows, there are so many examples of canopies being swapped that this idea doesn't fly either ... it comes down to serial.

Ken

Checking my photo list, I've got a BUNCH of AD-5N/A-1G (USN) SNs that look identical to "normal" USAF A-1Es, with blue back rooms and all. So I'd guess that a fully converted, USAF-ized (Navy) G became a USAF E.

Can you post any of those pics??

Snake45 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm **Posts:** 864

Ken wrote:

Snake45 wrote:

Ken wrote:

(I'd be curious to know if any G, when fully modded by the USAF, earned a new title of "E" however Mutza's serial listing doesn't tend to support this.) Finally, if you thought you could pick out a G based on its lack of full blue room windows, there are so many examples of canopies being swapped that this idea doesn't fly either ... it comes down to serial.

Ken

Checking my photo list, I've got a BUNCH of AD-5N/A-1G (USN) SNs that look identical to "normal" USAF A-1Es, with blue back rooms and all. So I'd guess that a fully converted, USAF-ized (Navy) G became a USAF E.

Can you post any of those pics??

Ken, you've got my list now. The -5Ns are called out (Joe Baugher standard listing). Look for any I've got marked USAF. If I DON'T have "metaled-over rear canopy" or something of the sort specified, it's got a blue back room. I imagine you have a lot of the same books I do on the reference list at the bottom, and my photo notes thoughtfully include page numbers. :wink:

If you run across a couple on my list in books you don't have, let me know, and I'll see if I can scan and post.

BTW, near as I can tell, not all AD-5Ns got metaled-over back rooms. Many did, but at least some didn't. Maybe most, I dunno, haven't put that much effort into studying pics of USN Skyraiders at this point . Now the Qs and Ws, I think the metal back room was the rule rather than the exception on those.

Ken · **Posted:** Fri May 02, 2014 8:59 pm

Okay, thanks, I have homework to do!

SpadGuy · **Joined:** Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:40 pm **Posts:** 19

Snake45 wrote:

Ken wrote:

As far as VNAF airplanes having dual controls: Recall the first A-1's supplied to the VNAF were H/J models. I don't have the reference handy to back up my memory, but IIRC, any E/G supplied would have been used as a trainer as much as it was a combat airframe so the dual controls would have been a must.

My understanding is that no USN -5s were built with dual controls or were used as trainers. Naval training was done in T-28s and so, as near as I can tell, was the initial VNAF training (of course, some of the initial VNAF A-1 pilots would be transitioning from Bearcats and would thus have plenty of hi-po taildragger time).

Hukee's book has several accounts of VNAF pilots and their training (conducted by USN and USAF both), but so far I haven't found one such account where the fellow specifically mentions whether his A-1E training was in a dual or single control airplane. Amazing!

What I have been told by numerous VNAF Skyraider pilots, was that in the early days (60-64) all their training was in A-1H/J. Additionally, the US Navy squadron that provided early training IN VIETNAM to the VNAF. VA-125 had Detatchmet Zulu on shore at Bien Hoa in 1964. This was short lived as they lost 13 of their 33 Skyraiders from April to the end of November.

SpadGuy · **Joined:** Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:40 pm **Posts:** 19

Ken wrote:

Snake,

I'm not so sure. Hook's p.58 bird is an A-1G ... while the E-5 was an E (not G) still in single stick config; the -5 nomenclature was not something done for convenience, rather the panel layout & such truly was different due to the single stick and the USAF dash one manual clearly shows this (as seen in the last version of the manual, 1971 with sups into 1972). In addition, this manual has references for the E-5, as well as MAP configurations so my take is that they are all unique in their own way.

I'll have to hunt down the reference, but I believe the E-5's were previously EA-1E's (AD-5W) and part of the reference I don't have handy is that the Bu No on the Cavanaugh EA-1E and Eric Downing's A-1E fall in that serial batch as well and, had those airframes been transferred like their sisters, they would have been called A-1E-5's as well. IIRC those airplanes received their right seat sticks after becoming warbirds, not while in service. Since I'm more of a USAF guy, I'd like a Navy/Marine type to chime in on this: which E/G models had dual sticks while in service with the Navy? My guess is "few", but I'd like to hear from someone who knows. Also recall that not all E/G airplanes had speedbrakes, but I digress ...

As far as VNAF airplanes having dual controls: Recall the first A-1's supplied to the VNAF were H/J models. I don't have the reference handy to back up my memory, but IIRC, any E/G supplied would have been used as a trainer as much as it was a combat airframe so the dual controls would have been a must. Later, the first USAF A-1E's to arrive (wearing VNAF stars & bars) had dual controls as well since they were produced to the USAF standard (surely some of the books didn't confuse the wearing of VNAF markings with an actual "transfer" between the services?). As you mention, it's hard to say anything 100% when it comes to this, but I believe I'm correct in what I've stated.

BTW, what I consider to be one of the finest examples of a controlled gear-up landing is this A-1E taking the cable at the 31:30 mark in the video. That's some real control easing her down while the prop progressively chews to shreds. Video link here: http://youtu.be/rq-ob6PRvdY

Ken

Maybe this will help, maybe not. Don't get hung up on what USAF A-1Es were before they were USAF A-1Es. Different types of Navy two seaters went into the hopper at the beginning of the process to emerge as the "USAF standard" A-1E. This was quite an orderly process early on (1964-1968), but it became less so as losses exceeded acquisitions with Rolling Thunder raging on. The 602nd lost 35 aircraft (all A-1Es or Gs) between June '65 to end of 1966. This astounding loss rate AND the loss of the training role led to the birth of the A-1E-5. Some of the more important mods in the A-1E standard were accomplished, but the addition of dual controls was not accomplished. Remember, all two seat Navy Skyraiders had but one set of controls, So to figure out what Navy Skyraider models became A-1E-5s may be a bridge too far.

I do know that there were several Navy Skyraiders that ended up in the bone yard that were on USAF books for more than a year but never left the boneyard. Someday I will have to go through the list to see how many that was, but it is at least a dozen.

Snake45 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm **Posts:** 864

SpadGuy wrote:

Ken wrote:

Snake,

I'm not so sure. Hook's p.58 bird is an A-1G ... while the E-5 was an E (not G) still in single stick config; the -5 nomenclature was not something done for convenience, rather the panel layout & such truly was different due to the single stick and the USAF dash one manual clearly shows this (as seen in the last version of the manual, 1971 with sups into 1972). In addition, this manual has references for the E-5, as well as MAP configurations so my take is that they are all unique in their own way.

I'll have to hunt down the reference, but I believe the E-5's were previously EA-1E's (AD-5W) and part of the reference I don't have handy is that the Bu No on the Cavanaugh EA-1E and Eric Downing's A-1E fall in that serial batch as well and, had those airframes been transferred like their sisters, they would have been called A-1E-5's as well. IIRC those airplanes received their right seat sticks after becoming warbirds, not while in service. Since I'm more of a USAF guy, I'd like a Navy/Marine type to chime in on this: which E/G models had dual sticks while in service with the Navy? My guess is "few", but I'd like to hear from someone who knows. Also recall that not all E/G airplanes had speedbrakes, but I digress ...

As far as VNAF airplanes having dual controls: Recall the first A-1's supplied to the VNAF were H/J models. I don't have the reference handy to back up my memory, but IIRC, any E/G supplied would have been used as a trainer as much as it was a combat airframe so the dual controls would have been a must. Later, the first USAF A-1E's to arrive (wearing VNAF stars & bars) had dual controls as well since they were produced to the USAF standard (surely some of the books didn't confuse the wearing of VNAF markings with an actual "transfer" between the services?). As you mention, it's hard to say anything 100% when it comes to this, but I believe I'm correct in what I've stated.

BTW, what I consider to be one of the finest examples of a controlled gear-up landing is this A-1E taking the cable at the 31:30 mark in the video. That's some real control easing her down while the prop progressively chews to shreds. Video link here: http://youtu.be/rq-ob6PRvdY

Ken

Maybe this will help, maybe not. Don't get hung up on what USAF A-1Es were before they were USAF A-1Es. Different types of Navy two seaters went into the hopper at the beginning of the process to emerge as the "USAF standard" A-1E. This was quite an orderly process early on (1964-1968), but it became less so as losses exceeded acquisitions with Rolling Thunder raging on. The 602nd lost 35 aircraft (all A-1Es or Gs) between June '65 to end of 1966. This astounding loss rate AND the loss of the training role led to the birth of the A-1E-5. Some of the more important mods in the A-1E standard were accomplished, but the addition of dual controls was not accomplished. Remember, all two seat Navy Skyraiders had but one set of controls, So to figure out what Navy Skyraider models became A-1E-5s may be a bridge too far.

I do know that there were several Navy Skyraiders that ended up in the bone yard that were on USAF books for more than a year but never left the boneyard. Someday I will have to go through the list to see how many that was, but it is at least a dozen.

Thanks, Hook. I long ago gave up my theory that "E-5" was what USAF called the MAP-spec Skyraiders. No crossover there at all; completely different SNs. So not even getting into what covered the back room, you had three different subtypes of E in Southeast Asia: Full USAF E, USAF E-5, and MAP-spec E/G. (This also doesn't count the USN EA-1Fs, either.)

What do you mean by "Navy Skyraiders" in your boneyard? Were these single-seaters still in USN markings? Or non-USAF-spec Es/Gs, maybe with few if any markings at all? (I've seen a couple photos of such airplanes so far.)

I'm up to, I think, nine S/Ns of MAP-spec Es/Gs being operated by USAF, plus one juicy one I can't get a number on. Just found another one tonight. This one's on Mutza's list of USAF Skyraiders, with the only remark being "VNAF." Note no national insignia on either fuselage or wings, suggesting it's in transition either to or back from USAF.

SIDSIKO · **Posted:** Tue May 06, 2014 2:28 pm

A-1G 132620. SOC by the Navy at O&R Alameda, 29 June 1965, to VNAF. Written off with 516 FS, 29 Jan 1968

Snake45 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm **Posts:** 864

SIDSIKO wrote:

A-1G 132620. SOC by the Navy at O&R Alameda, 29 June 1965, to VNAF. Written off with 516 FS, 29 Jan 1968

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it had a similar post-USN career path to 132528, also of 516 FS, in 1965 or thereabouts. :wink:

BOF · **Joined:** Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:18 pm **Posts:** 8

Another brilliant A-1 thread!

Byron Wrote:

"I do know that there were several Navy Skyraiders that ended up in the bone yard that were on USAF books for more than a year but never left the boneyard. Someday I will have to go through the list to see how many that was, but it is at least a dozen."

The following USN EA-1F were input to MASDC between May 1968 - October 1969, gained by the USAF and stricken from the USAF inventory at MASDC for reclamation (Unit marks/squadron in brackets where known)
132545 (GD??? VAQ-33), 132555 (VR012 VAW-13), 132581 (VR779 VAW-13), 132613, 132790 (VR775 VAW-13), 133758, 133763 (VR?? VAQ-130), 134983 (VR774 VAW-13), 135018 (GD703 VAQ-33), 135034 (VR777 VAW-13), 135049 (VR776 VAW-13) &135140 (VR781 VAW-13) were Stricken on 06Aug69
132437 (NJ076 VA-122), 132446 (VR00 VAQ-130) & 135188 (GD700 VAQ-33) on 09Mar70. 135188 obviously went to China Lake for the Stanley Extraction test pictured in the “main Skyraider thread”

Other EA-1Fs input to MASDC during August – October 1969 were:
132589 (GD707 VAQ-33), 132590 (GD706 VAQ-33), 132603 (GD704 VAQ-33), 134974, 134984 (GD704 VAQ-33), 135054 (GD7?? VAQ-33), 135148 (GD700 VAQ-33).
I’ve found no evidence (so far!) that these were gained onto the USAF inventory. Perhaps they were kept by the USN as spares support for the remaining few USN test aircraft.

The A-1H/Js didn't linger long at MASDC when retired by the USN - understandably so given the operational requirements but several seemed to be there for 18months or so before going for rework. On Neil Airds excellent DHC2 website (http://www.dhc-2.com/Monthan_Memories.html) there are some pictured on 10Sep68).

Some MASDC documents I found indicated that original plans were for 110 USN A-1/J to be transferred to the USAF, 102 being input to MASDC. Plans changed however, a carrier full were off-loaded directly to Quonset Point plus many were flown direct to Quonset Point.

I'm constantly amazed at how many pictures there are of USAF/SVNAF Skyraiders in SEA!

Barry Fryer

Snake45 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm **Posts:** 864

Great information, Barry! At last we're getting some idea of what happened to the EA-1Fs. (Only three have shown up on the lists as possibly being transferred to VNAF so far.)

BOF wrote:

I'm constantly amazed at how many pictures there are of USAF/SVNAF Skyraiders in SEA!

Barry Fryer

In my little model-nerd project, I've now been through 38 books and magazines, and have logged 235 photos of 91 different identifiable USAF and VNAF A-1E and G aircraft. Went through Hook's website yesterday and got a few more, I think even some I didn't have previously. Still have the VNAF site to do. I'm hoping to hit at least 100 different aircraft.

And that's just the fatfaces. Dunno if I'll do the same thing with all the single-seaters or not. I DO plan to do the VNAF gray ones, but the rest, what a project. I probably have two to four times more single-seat photos than I do fatfaces. And I haven't noticed the interesting variations in them that I did the -5s. For example, I have yet to run across one photo of USAF operating a MAP-spec H or J. Doesn't mean it never happened, I just haven't seen it yet.

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