Skyraider Questions

[Snake45]

A year ago (before the Hukee USAF/VNAF Skyraider book came out) I'd never heard of an "A-1E-5" Skyraider. Now for some reason I'm kind of interested in learning more about them.

Were the E-5 and the so-called MAP-spec (Military Assistance Program) A-1E/G Skyraiders as supplied to VNAF one and the same thing? I'm thinking they were, but I don't have any hard confirmation one way or the other.

Does anyone here know anything about the radios and antennas that would have been used on USAF and VNAF Skyraiders? I've got that diagram that's been published in a couple books but it almost raises more questions than it answers.

Looking forward to talking A-1s with y'all.

[Ken]

Hook is occasionally on WIX, maybe he'll chime in as well ...

Absent that, the last edition of the USAF T.O. 1A-1E-1 in 1971 identifies the four basic models as the E/G/H/J and then further differentiates in the panel diagrams, circuit breakers, etc with the designation E-5 and, in some cases "USAF" vs "MAP". Based on Hook's book and other sources, the E-5 was a single control E-model that was taken from Navy/Marine stocks and not put through the full USAF A-1E conversion in order for the airframe to enter combat sooner. These were sent to combat units with the intent being for it to be flown single pilot, (even though we know that some missions required two pilots and the guy in the right seat was left sans control stick.)

I am not an expert on "MAP spec" details; actually I once thought that an A-1E/G converted for use in Vietnam was the same whether it was sent to the USAF or VNAF, but that is not so. There were differences, some simply could be caused by the fact that A-1H's were supplied as early as 1961 and the USAF didn't get their first H or J until 1967 - the question would be: when did MAP "standard" begin and was it consistent from 1961-1975? Other mods (such as UHF/VHF/FM radios) differed between USAF & MAP. (Which brings up an interesting question: I would like to know how a MAP A-1H in 1961 differed from a stock Navy A-1H.) The questions you raise don't necessarily have clear-cut answers.

An educated guess regarding the E-5 would be that any A-1E supplied to the VNAF under the MAP would have at least had dual controls, and therefore not been an E-5. That said, later in the war there were countless examples of tails going back and forth between the USAF & VNAF so the lines definitely blurred ... and I would have to assume that the USAF would not accept, for example, an A-1 without certain equipment such as FM radios or the tailhook. Point being, the differences between MAP & USAF existed, but I doubt they were other than minor. And did the VNAF ever operate an E-5? By war's end the answer had to be "yes" - it's just that the airplane would have started out with the USAF first.

Regarding antennas, the -1 I mentioned does have an E & H antenna location diagram. There is also an equipment grid which lists the various radios and avionics; it shows, for example, the E-5 did not have HF, ILS, VOR, or radar altimeter. It also lists some radio versions installed on MAP - an example is that USAF H-models had AN/ARC-27 UHF radios while MAP H's had AN/ARC-27A's instead. The frustrating thing about the diagram is the book frequently references "some airplanes", so it would be hard to say this or that tail was 100% equipped with such and such. While it's in our nature to want a clear cut answer, I doubt there is one to be found on this topic.

Cool topic,
Ken

[Snake45]

Hi Ken! Thanks for the response. You're obviously someone who knows a thing or two about Skyraiders. Good to meet you!

The caption on page 58 of Hukee's book is what set this whole inquiry of mine off. The same airplane, different photo, is in the Skyraider thread here, and I've located a third pic of it, too. That's what set me to looking to see if I could find any more of these "VNAF-spec" E/Gs in USAF service. And lo and behold, I've found them. I think I'm up to about a half-dozen so far--I'd have to check my list for the exact number.

Based on Hook's book and other sources, the E-5 was a single control E-model that was taken from Navy/Marine stocks and not put through the full USAF A-1E conversion in order for the airframe to enter combat sooner. These were sent to combat units with the intent being for it to be flown single pilot, (even though we know that some missions required two pilots and the guy in the right seat was left sans control stick.)

The pic on p.58 I mention tells a different story: These were airplanes prepped for VNAF use and the USAF "borrowed" some of them in early 1965 to make up for losses. According to photos, either USAF kept a few of them longer than the four months mentioned in the book, or they got some of them back later on (after camo). My theory is that USAF at some point started calling these airplanes "E-5s" since they were going to turn up now and then. I suspect earlier versions of the manual called out USAF and MAP spec differences, with later versions replacing some (but not all) references to MAP spec with the E-5 designation. (I used to work in producing military manuals and their changes, so I have some idea how that system works.)

(Which brings up an interesting question: I would like to know how a MAP A-1H in 1961 differed from a stock Navy A-1H.)

That one's easy: The VNAF (MAP-spec, presumably) Hs had a second, taller blade antenna installed (as did all true VNAF Skyraiders I've seen), and they had their tailhooks removed (USAF Skyraiders retained their tailhooks, and I have no idea why in either case). You can clearly see both mods in pic of the earliest VNAF A-1s.

An educated guess regarding the E-5 would be that any A-1E supplied to the VNAF under the MAP would have at least had dual controls, and therefore not been an E-5.

I've got references that say both that all VNAF A-1E/Gs had dual controls, and that none of them did. I really have no idea which is accurate but I'm beginning to doubt that they ALL did. Maybe some, but I suspect the "standard" was single controls only.

That said, later in the war there were countless examples of tails going back and forth between the USAF & VNAF so the lines definitely blurred ... and I would have to assume that the USAF would not accept, for example, an A-1 without certain equipment such as FM radios or the tailhook.

As I said, I've got several photos now of USAF Es/Gs without tailhooks. In every case, they also have the VNAF-type tall antenna, not the swept blade style (Collins 37R-2 or equivalent). And some of these are in camo, placing them much later than early 1965.

Regarding antennas, the -1 I mentioned does have an E & H antenna location diagram. There is also an equipment grid which lists the various radios and avionics; it shows, for example, the E-5 did not have HF, ILS, VOR, or radar altimeter. It also lists some radio versions installed on MAP - an example is that USAF H-models had AN/ARC-27 UHF radios while MAP H's had AN/ARC-27A's instead. The frustrating thing about the diagram is the book frequently references "some airplanes", so it would be hard to say this or that tail was 100% equipped with such and such. While it's in our nature to want a clear cut answer, I doubt there is one to be found on this topic.

Cool topic,
Ken

More on antennas/radios later--just got called for supper.

Thanks again for the discussion, which I hope will go on a while.

[Mark Allen M]

Well Snake I guess I could pat myself on the back and ask WIX for my commission, OR ask for forgiveness for bringing aboard another "expert" brainiac ...

Seriously, welcome and trust me you'll like it here. Very wise, respectful and "mature" group of members. (Well most of the time anyway lol) Here I'm always the student and Ken so happens to be one of the professors. Real good guy and knows his stuff.

You two will surely have me scratching my head soon enough, actually already have with Skyraider brain overload. I better post a couple hundred more photos.

But seriously? Your name is Snake? Don't tell me your last name is Plisken. lol, real names are welcome here.

Again welcome and enjoy the ride.

M

BTW I believe there's a WIX thread feature that alerts you when someone has posted to your thread, I believe via e-mail. Someone here can correct me on that if I'm wrong. And PM's are a feature at your disposal but I believe you have to be a member a week or two. Again someone may correct me on that.

You'll find WIX is much more robust (and more respectful) than your other site IMHO of course.

[Snake45]

But seriously? Your name is Snake? Don't tell me your last name is Plisken.

I like cars, guns and airplanes. I like Colt Pythons, Diamondbacks, and King Cobras, Shelby Cobras and Dodge Vipers, Bell Airacobras and HueyCobras, VMF-323 Death Rattlers, John Carpenter movies, and The Simpsons.

Ironically, I'm not real wild about actual snakes.

[Ken]

Snake,

I'm not so sure. Hook's p.58 bird is an A-1G ... while the E-5 was an E (not G) still in single stick config; the -5 nomenclature was not something done for convenience, rather the panel layout & such truly was different due to the single stick and the USAF dash one manual clearly shows this (as seen in the last version of the manual, 1971 with sups into 1972). In addition, this manual has references for the E-5, as well as MAP configurations so my take is that they are all unique in their own way.

I'll have to hunt down the reference, but I believe the E-5's were previously EA-1E's (AD-5W) and part of the reference I don't have handy is that the Bu No on the Cavanaugh EA-1E and Eric Downing's A-1E fall in that serial batch as well and, had those airframes been transferred like their sisters, they would have been called A-1E-5's as well. IIRC those airplanes received their right seat sticks after becoming warbirds, not while in service. Since I'm more of a USAF guy, I'd like a Navy/Marine type to chime in on this: which E/G models had dual sticks while in service with the Navy? My guess is "few", but I'd like to hear from someone who knows. Also recall that not all E/G airplanes had speedbrakes, but I digress ...

Regarding why did the USAF want to retain the tailhook? Most bases had some sort of BAK series (or similar) cable for emergency use. The dash one clearly instructs use of the tailhook and I personally have a dear friend whose life was saved by the departure end cable after nursing a very sick engine around the radar pattern at Bien Hoa only to have the GCA controller forget to say "begin descent" on an ASR approach. The resultant high & fast final (with hard bombs on every station that he was reluctant to punch off in the weather) caused him to take the cable at (or past) its speed limit, but it worked. I, too, have seen shots of USAF birds missing their hooks, but I suppose that was not a permanent arrangement, just a snapshot in time.

As far as VNAF airplanes having dual controls: Recall the first A-1's supplied to the VNAF were H/J models. I don't have the reference handy to back up my memory, but IIRC, any E/G supplied would have been used as a trainer as much as it was a combat airframe so the dual controls would have been a must. Later, the first USAF A-1E's to arrive (wearing VNAF stars & bars) had dual controls as well since they were produced to the USAF standard (surely some of the books didn't confuse the wearing of VNAF markings with an actual "transfer" between the services?). As you mention, it's hard to say anything 100% when it comes to this, but I believe I'm correct in what I've stated.

BTW, what I consider to be one of the finest examples of a controlled gear-up landing is this A-1E taking the cable at the 31:30 mark in the video. That's some real control easing her down while the prop progressively chews to shreds. Video link here: http://youtu.be/rq-ob6PRvdY

Ken

Last edited by Ken on Fri May 02, 2014 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Snake45]

I'll have to hunt down the reference, but I believe the E-5's were previously EA-1E's (AD-5W) and part of the reference I don't have handy is that the Bu No on the Cavanaugh EA-1E and Eric Downing's A-1E fall in that serial batch as well and, had those airframes been transferred like their sisters, they would have been called A-1E-5's as well.

Funny you should mention that, as I've been the last day or two researching the AD-5Ws. Hukee says that -5Qs and -5Ws were converted to USAF and VNAF A-1E/Gs, but I don't think so. First off, the -5Ws were built unarmed--no cannons or ejection ports for them. Now I suppose they could have been retrofitted with cannons with enough effort but I've now looked at several hundred USAF and VNAF A-1E pics, carefully logging the SNs of every single one I could identify, and I believe I've found photos of them in every AD-5 and -5N SN block, but so far NOT ONE with a -5W SN. As far as -5Qs (EA-1E), these were also unarmed but were converted from original -5Ns, which were originally armed, so it would have been possible to reinstall guns in them. Trouble is as conversions, the SNs of Qs isn't handy but I just this evening found a list, by individual BuAerNo, of the -5Ns that were converted to Qs. I'm going to run every one of those SNs through my database and if I find even one of them, then I'll buy the proposition that Qs were recycled into Es or Gs. If I don't find ANY of them, then I'll still have my doubts.

Would you believe that at this point I don't even know how many -5s of all variant were built? For example, I've got two different good sources that state that one particular block of -5Ws was cancelled (over 60 aircraft), yet the Joe Baugher list has individual dispositions on at least two (or was it three?) airplanes in that block. And I'm sure the deeper I get into this, the more anamolies of this kind I'll find. Sigh.

[Mark Allen M]

I can't keep up with this conversation, but I do like fast cars (have a few), fast airplanes (had one) and fast women (had one too many)

And I've posted several VMF-323 Death Rattlers Corsair photos around here somewhere.

M

[Snake45]

As far as VNAF airplanes having dual controls: Recall the first A-1's supplied to the VNAF were H/J models. I don't have the reference handy to back up my memory, but IIRC, any E/G supplied would have been used as a trainer as much as it was a combat airframe so the dual controls would have been a must.

My understanding is that no USN -5s were built with dual controls or were used as trainers. Naval training was done in T-28s and so, as near as I can tell, was the initial VNAF training (of course, some of the initial VNAF A-1 pilots would be transitioning from Bearcats and would thus have plenty of hi-po taildragger time).

Hukee's book has several accounts of VNAF pilots and their training (conducted by USN and USAF both), but so far I haven't found one such account where the fellow specifically mentions whether his A-1E training was in a dual or single control airplane. Amazing!

[Ken]

For example, the Cavanaugh airplane is 135152 and 135141 and 135154 are listed on p.194 of Mutza's "A-1 Skyraider in Vietnam" in the list of USAF airplanes as A-1E-5's.

Incidentally, Mutza only lists 20 -5's as being assigned to the USAF and they are two groups ... the first range is 135139-135215 and the second is the 139575-139598 range (not all inclusive).

My buddy was an IP at Hurlburt in the 67 time frame and had a number of VNAF students. He only flew the E-model there as his first H-model flight was in Jan 68 when reporting to the 6th SOS; the story of his 1st H-model flight is on p.82 of Hook's book.

Ken

[Ken]

BTW, the H-model antenna diagram on p.80 of Davis & Menard's A-1 Warbird Tech Series appears to be straight out of the USAF dash one, so I won't bother scanning it from the manual ...

Ken

[Snake45]

As far as -5Qs (EA-1E), these were also unarmed but were converted from original -5Ns, which were originally armed, so it would have been possible to reinstall guns in them. Trouble is as conversions, the SNs of Qs isn't handy but I just this evening found a list, by individual BuAerNo, of the -5Ns that were converted to Qs. I'm going to run every one of those SNs through my database and if I find even one of them, then I'll buy the proposition that Qs were recycled into Es or Gs. If I don't find ANY of them, then I'll still have my doubts.

Okay, I ran all the Q numbers through my database. Joe Baugher lists exactly ONE of them (132576) as going to VNAF--no further details. I haven't found photos of any of them. My personal jury is still out on this question.

[Snake45]

For example, the Cavanaugh airplane is 135152 and 135141 and 135154 are listed on p.194 of Mutza's "A-1 Skyraider in Vietnam" in the list of USAF airplanes as A-1E-5's.

I've got at least five photos of 141 in my database and none of them notes VNAF-type antenna or lack of tailhook. Interesting.

The Mutza book must be one of the few Skyraider books I don't have. I'll have to try to find a copy; sounds like I need it.

Could you list all the E-5 SNs? If you don't want to publicize them you could PM them to me. Would love to run them through my database.

Last edited by Snake45 on Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Snake45]

BTW, the H-model antenna diagram on p.80 of Davis & Menard's A-1 Warbird Tech Series appears to be straight out of the USAF dash one, so I won't bother scanning it from the manual ...

Ken

Yeah, I've got that in two books. Also found the Navy equivalent online, which put me on the trail of the AN/ARC-27 blade antenna. More on THAT thing later....

[Ken]

Could you list all the E-5 SNs?

I can, it may take a bit. Can't over-recommend Mutza's book though. Based on the detail of your posts, Snake, sounds like you need a copy on your shelf.

Ken