aces who NEVER CLAIMED OR REPORTED ANY OF THEIR VICTORIES??

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:34 pm

THEY ARE OUT THERE, ww2 aces who never claimed nor reported any of their 5 plus victories. an example...... I am currently reading ROBERT DORR'S terrific book "MISSION TO BERLIN" (EXCELLENT READ!!) where mr dorr states an example of a USAAF p-51 pilot who was in his 30's (an old man back then for fighter pilots) who never reported or claimed any of his victories, he was just their to do his duty, no recognition, no glory or medals. another example..... Charles lindbergh's hush hush mission to the pacific to train fighter pilots as much as possible to tweak as much fuel & mileage from their p-38s & f4u corsairs. it is well known that lindy downed a Japanese Sonia fixed wing ground support aircraft, but others state he reached ace status, but it was never acknowledged because he wasn't to be in the pacific or combat. many claim this is true, but to my knowledge the myth is unsubstantiated. another example....... my best friend, who is the grand "pooh bah" of aviation history told me a story of a 51 pilot friend of his funeral some years back. the funeral was complete w/ a 5 p-51 mustang fly over / missing man formation. my friend asked the widow how she managed to scrape together 5 p- 51s on short notice for a missing man mission. as he stated, it's tough enough to scrape 5 together for an airshow!! she said he just never felt the need to announce nor claim his victories, but she knew he was a 12 victory ace, as it was conveyed to her by her then husband, the man she trusted most. now, there are only two ways to crack the mystery, by gun camera footage & squadron mate eyewitnesses. can anyone crack this nut?? there has to be some under the radar of aviation history!!

seagull61785 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:16 pm

I recall reading ages ago about some of the Luftwaffe 'Experten', who after a while (and usually after they had scored 100 or more kills) stopped bothering to claim any more victories. I think it was Gunther Rall or Gerhard Barkhorn whose favourite quote in regard to 'kills' was "I prefer to leave them for the poor people" - meaning the newer pilots and lesser aces.

I might have these names wrong or mis-spelt, or even the wrong guys but you get the idea nonetheless.

Barry

Chris Brame · **Posted:** Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:53 pm

That seems kind of odd; weren't pilots supposed to give detailed reports after each mission? Number and type of enemy planes sighted, engaged, destroyed, etc.?

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:59 pm

I call BS!

davidwomacks · **Joined:** Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:34 pm **Posts:** 195

Frantz Stigler quit claming victorys after 20 or so.

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:19 am

chris, it's not hard to believe pilots could have fudged reports & de - briefings, but like I said gun camera footage & eyewitness squadronmate de - briefings are not so easily dodged or erased.

seagull61785 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:05 am

That's true Tom.

But the recording system on both sides was predicated on pilots making claims after a sortie. If the pilot in question didn't bother to make a claim, then there would have been a lesser pressure 'from the system' to prove or disprove it wouldn't there. There is a likelihood that some pilots were just focused on shooting the enemy down, with no interest in keeping score.

That's my opinion.

B

Chief · **Joined:** Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:18 pm **Posts:** 187

My brother-in-law was in 9th Air Force, 10th Photo Reconnaissance Gp. He flew photo recon in a P-51. (Actually a F-6) He reported shooting a Me-109 one day and was disciplined for chasing after and shooting down German aircraft, when he was supposed to be taking photos for Army intel. There is a possibility other pilots like him, who were punished for "not doing their assigned duties", may have not claimed all of the aircraft they actually shot down.

Nevertheless, he claimed 8 kills, including a ME-262.

Scott 'Gunny' Perdue · **Posted:** Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:58 pm

Guys-

I just don't buy the idea that many... or any pilots.. deferred a claim. Risking your life is hard... shooting a bad guy down is your reward and recognition... I just can't see many pilots taking the position that it was no big deal.

That being said I do know of lots of pilots that did not claim credit for a mission where no kill claim was made. Robin Olds is one that comes to mind, Don Blakeslee and many others. Staying in the fight is a big deal.... getting credit for success is a big deal as well.

My two cents.
gunny

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:05 pm

Not many realize also that MacDonald was reprimanded and sent home for the "Lindberg business" aka violating orders.
How do you fake a claim. Reports are made after every missions and you can't really give them away. How do explain firing off 1000 rounds and your wingman 2 got and the tapes still over his guns? Has for the recce guys, some were reprimanded to shooting instead of snapping photos but no one shot one down and didn't report it. I asked Lee Larson (15th TRS ace) this once and he said it was pure HS!

old iron · **Posted:** Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:27 pm

I will bet that for any pilot who knows he shot one down but did not put in a claim there were a hundred who knew they shot squat and told everyone a story.

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7812

Well hmm!!! where to start

RobC · **Posted:** Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:51 pm

I 2nd Jack's BS call. I would not respect a man who falsified his combat reports, regardless of the motivation.

The Intelligence Units used these reports to develop a mosaic of enemy deployments, strengths, weaknesses, etc. How would repeatedly falsifying these reports help the effort? That guy was no hero.

sandiego89 · **Joined:** Mon May 21, 2012 12:28 pm **Posts:** 1196

How about Korea? Is it true that there were engagements on the "wrong" side of the Yalu river that could not be claimed? If so did they not claim the engagment, or did they fudge the location of the engagement?

Adam Kline · **Posted:** Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:08 am

I'm sure there were heroics that weren't reported. Bob Burns was a P-40 pilot with the 57th. I use to work with him. He mentioned he once ran out of ammo while tangling with two ME 109s and decided to ram them. He claimed he never mentioned that to his superiors for obvious reasons. But I doubt you could get away coming back with no ammo and just walk into the bar. Ralph Hofer a 4th group pilot aborted a mission due to mechanical issues. When he landed the intel officer asked "the tape is missing on your guns. I thought you aborted" Hofer exclaimed "oh that, I did that before I aborted." (One Thousand Destroyed} He apparently dove down to the deck to shoot up some flak barges on the way back. Not part of the mission. He got caught.

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aces who NEVER CLAIMED OR REPORTED ANY OF THEIR VICTORIES??

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