Warbird Information Exchange

They don't own either them, that I'm aware of. The Tiger I is property of the US Army and is the one that was displayed at Aberdeen proving Ground for many years.

_________________
Life member, 91st BG Memorial Association
Owner, 1944 Willys MB #366014
Former REMF (US Army, O3)

Wheatcroft's website says they have a Tiger II in future projects, but it looks like they need a whole bunch more metal before they begin sticking it together.
http://www.wheatcroftcollection.com/home.html

I believe that Tiger I (712) is back in the United States.

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Tigers.pdf

a very generous donation that will ratchet collings x 10 in preservation of military history. logistically they will have their hands full transporting the collection east!! no ups, boxes & strapping tape their!!

_________________
tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

Littlefield was trying to secure a location in lower Redwood City for the collection to be set up as a museum, making it part of a larger history type of museum, prior to his death; unfortunately cancer took him before he could find a suitable location.

_________________
Roger Cain
www.sfahistory.org
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Stearman/


We must limit politicians to two terms:
one in office and one in jail.

Ah, breaker one-nine, this here's the Armored Duck. You gotta copy on me, Chieftain, c'mon? Ah, yeah, 10-4, Sherman, for sure, for sure. By golly, it's clean clear to Flag Town, c'mon. Yeah, that's a big 10-4 there, Sherman, yeah, we definitely got the front door, good buddy. Mercy sakes alive, looks like we got us a convoy...

I have a licence they got the petrol Ill bring one back...

_________________
Andrew King
Air Museum Director with no Museum to Direct
Open to Suggestions

I didn't realize that Tiger 712 was with Wheatcroft for a time, sounds like quite a story. I saw it up close at Aberdeen before it went to Germany. I once heard an interesting fish story about a supposed second Aberdeen Tiger 1 that was disposed of and possibly survived in the US somewhere. I day dreamed about that one for years. The auction next August should be interesting.

_________________
Always looking for WW2 Half-Tracks and Parts.

I'd be interested to hear the provisions of the agreement regarding the donation of this collection to the CF folks. After all this is not like receiving a cash donation. The logistics from an outsiders view could seem a bit overwhelming. There's no actual financial value to the receiver of the donation until after the auction and there's no certainty that the auction, or auctions, will garner anywhere near 30 million. A collection being appraised at 30 million doesn't necessarily mean it will sell at 30 million. I'm not sure what the value or demand is these days for hardware such as what has been donated to the CF. As for the time frame to receive the collection when and where, either as a whole or in phases would be another interesting conversation. A tremendous amount of logistics involved in this donation for sure.

_________________
“Knowing what’s right, doesn’t mean much unless you do what’s right.”

My Grandparents used to live in Aberdeen Md, and I spent most of my summers there during the early/mid 60's. My grandfather delivered mail to the Proving Grounds and I usually went with him. I vividly remember the line up of tanks, vehicles and "Anzio Annie" along the road going through the Base. At that time there was an older building that held the vast majority of vehicles, equipment and other objects inside. If I remember correctly, there was one individual who did quite a bit of the recovery and I believe his last name was Gott???

_________________
Natural law. Sons are put on this earth to trouble their fathers.

The Panther I'd put a rough guess on of 2-3 million but I could be way off. One of the large German halftracks (arty prime mover) sold at auction last year for 300k and it didn't have an engine.

_________________
Always looking for WW2 Half-Tracks and Parts.

It sounds from the release that Collings isn't expecting anywhere near $30 million from the auction, just enough to fund the movement of the remaining collection to Stow and construction of the new facility. And the "$30 million" appraised value does have financial value as since the deal has apparently been completed, that is a liability on the organization since they are now responsible for insuring that value against loss and it's not in their possession, thus creating a less-than-ideal situation since they don't have physical control of the items yet, making getting the Auction done quickly even more important.

501 3c (I may have it ass backwards) non profit organization is what the donor & recipient will be filing as a tax deductible donation. nonetheless what a contribution to military history preservation!!

_________________
tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

I was thinking of stating that point, but for fear of sounding pessimistic, I chose to leave it alone ...
Best of luck to the CF folks. Regardless it's still a nice donation, albeit a tricky one.

As for the non-profit tax deductible aspect. Taxes will accrue down the road for the CF folks, just in a different way.

_________________
“Knowing what’s right, doesn’t mean much unless you do what’s right.”

I'm not pessimistic about it. It's a fact of any deal this large (and I'm sure that CF's lawyers have covered every avenue they can think of and then thrown a few in just for good measure) to protect both the Foundation and the Littlefield family as much as possible should something happen. I think CF is doing something brave here. They're accepting a major donation of equipment but being practical about it and financially reasonable about it and being honest with the public about what they're doing. To many museums and groups take on a project thinking, "this is a special collection/item/etc, we'll find the money for it," and end up biting off way more than they can handle and end up either giving it away again in short order or it languishes unkept until it finally rots away because of a lot of good intentions but nothing to really back it up. Imagine had CF announced this acquisition during the summer and then not said a word until January or February and then say, "we're selling off 2/3 of the collection"? It would have been an uproar even if that was the original plan. They would have been perceived as having no plan and realizing only after the fact they couldn't afford to move the collection and thus "treasures" were being lost and that Mr. Littlefield's "legacy" was being destroyed because CF were greedy and took on something they knew they couldn't handle.

I sincerely hope that other groups, especially those wanting to save large objects (see the Carrier groups) see how CF handled this acquisition/donation and use it in the future to realize that saving a treasure doesn't mean that you save it whole. Sometimes you need to go into it knowing, planning, and making public, that you need to sell some things to be able to keep the best of it. I don't know how a Carrier or Ship saving group would "sell" parts of a ship, per se, but the point is that when you're looking to make such a large acquisition, you need to be forthright and specific about what you're going to do. So maybe instead of saving the carrier, you save the island (aka Cabot). You work out a deal where the proceeds from the salvage of the ship or auction of some of the equipment inside go towards your costs for displaying the island. The point is that you need a lot of capital to establish a collection or museum. CF is showing it can be done without putting a massive financial burden on the organization or having to "hope" for enough donations to support it until you're established and able to at least somewhat self-sustain.

I guess I can step forward now and confirm that the process of creating The Jacques M. Littlefield Collection at The Collings Foundation has been something that has been in "the works" for quite some time. There have been lots of meetings between the Littlefield family, the MVTF directors and The Collings Foundation. It was clear from the start that The Collings Foundation was interested in turning what was the best private collection of military vehicles in the United States, into a world class museum. Part of that is going from a collectors standpoint of buying anything you can find for sale, to limiting the collection to tell the story and meet the objectives of the museum. When people see that we are selling such a large percentage (number wise) of the collection, what they do not see is the actual descriptions of what is being sold. Being a collection, Jacques was not against buying multiples of the same vehicle. As a museum, paying the transportation, upkeep and storage of multiples is not financially smart. One Stuart M3 is going to be able to tell the story just as well as 3 of them. It is an evolving process as the list of vehicles that will ultimately be part of the museum is still in flux. There are a certain number of vehicles that the Littlefield family are keeping, a certain group of vehicles that "have" to be part of the museum in Stow (including the Panther), another set of vehicles that we feel will finish telling the story within the museum, then the rest of the vehicles that we feel are excess to the story we want to tell.

There will be an auction there in Portola Valley by Mecum Auction House on August 1st and 2nd, 2014 where there will be at least 100 military vehicles for sale. There will be everything from Stuart's to Sherman's, to M-60's that will be sold. Some of them are restored to running status, some are display status, and there are some projects that MVTF never got to. We feel that this is probably one of the largest auctions of this caliber of military vehicles for sale in one location in quite a few years. There may never be another one like it. There is already some world wide interest in the auction, and it was announced less than a week ago.

To keep this thread from getting moved out of the Warbird part of the forum, I will throw out a teaser that we will be making another major announcement in the next few weeks that is warbird related.