Warbird Information Exchange

More news from Midland folks: http://www.cbs7kosa.com/news/details.asp?ID=49029

Ok, here's yet another story out of Midland. http://www.mywesttexas.com/top_stories/ ... de=jqm_gal

We say that the CAF is in desperate need of money and donations. And yet, we take major benefactors (like Joe and Van) and bite them in the backside and more importantly insult them. Then, we wonder why the donations don't keep rolling in.

It is important to vote folks. Very important.

We don't know all the details, incentives, etc. of the announced contenders. How can we as a membership even consider any of them as a new home?

Just vote NO!

Interesting. I would be interested in knowing when the last time the Mabee's actually gave money to the CAF. There removal of support might not mean anything at all. I seem to recall when I was still traveling to Airsho at MAF that the rumor was that he was already disenfranchised with the CAF and had stopped supporting it....and I recall hearing that back in the late 90s.

I totally support the move out of MAF and I support Steve Brown. He has done a great job of shedding the once miserable image the CAF had. I have been involved with warbirds for close to thirty years and I remember my friends and I wondering ever year what CAF airplane was going to be destroyed. The CAF needed to change the perception of the public and warbird supporters in general and I think Steve has done a good job with that. So much so that I once he was at the helm I rejoined the CAF at the Life Member level. I am not really active in the CAF since I have sold my warbirds, but I made the journey to MAF many times at great expense in fuel. When and if I buy another warbird, I can't imagine circumstances that would make me think that flying all the way to Airsho in MAF would be worth it. Even for a steak at the Wall Street, which was about the only redeeming thing I found in the town. No offense to those who live there. I could see justify bringing an airplane to the other locations as there would be more to do for the non aviation interested in my family.

As for all the screaming from Midland about the money given to the CAF...that is the risk you take in any economic development initiative. There are never any guarantees. Also usually any commitments have an expiration date and my guess is that the timing of this announcement likely coincides with the expiration of any such agreement (20 years maybe?) Midland had a good run with the CAF, and if their area is anything like mine here, tax abatements, development funds etc have been extended to many other companies that didn't succeed ,folded, or didn't live up to their commitments. Communities take that risk all the time. My guess is that the CAF has investigated the commitments and are not putting themselves in legal jeopardy. We have elections every year to elect leaders that we believe will make the right decisions. At some point you have to trust that they have investigated this. There are some very talented and successful folks on general staff who didn't get there by making impetuous or rash decisions.

I spoke with a gentlemen at OSH from one of the cities in contention for the move. He said they had 8 million on the table for the CAF to move. My guess is that wherever the CAF moves, it won't be an issue of finances to make the move.

The CAF needs new blood in an area that is easier to get too and a greater population. Midland had its run, and it is time to move on. If it is true that Airsho only generates 75-100k in revenue for the CAF, then even more so. I imagine a greater population area will generate greater airshow revenue and greater participation of both members and non-members in their aircraft.

My vote is yes for the move...

I think that more members would support the move if Steve laid all the cards on the table. This secret crap don't cut it in my book. Saying that they have to keep the cities guessing to negotiate the best deal is BS. If one has already laid down 8M then let us (the members) see it. I could support something like that. I have never been in love with Midland,fought hard to get it elsewhere, but at this time he l l , I am confused as to what is the best way to vote. I am with you on the Mabee thinking. Haven't seen any support from him since the move, and he contributed his A-26 to the EAA not the CAF.

Yep, the more information the better...I can agree with that! I suspect there is a pretty good pot of gold from several of the contenders...

Tim:

Sorry you only found Wall Street as the ony attraction here. Cheap shots about the community don't seem relevant to this topic however.

The Mabee Foundation has supported the Museum and the construction of the Commemorative Center for many years after Joe Mabee left the General Staff.

Yes, cities take a risk when they give economic incentives to businesses. This is home of the evil independent oil man: we understand all this perfectly well.

The lease agreement with the city is more than a twenty year lease (my faulty memory is a fifty year with an option for another fifty). It is that lease agreement that is at the crux of this entire matter. If the city terminates the lease, by finding the CAF in default, then everything closes, and the CAF loses all of the investments it has made in the facility over the last twenty two years. That doesn't seem prudent, but I'm no businessman.

What we (a small committee of very dedicated and involved local CAF members and HQ personnel) have been trying to do is establish a "Disneyland" (Midland) and "DisneyWorld" (unknown city) deal. Both facilities would be operated by the CAF, and one would be home to the Foundation and the Museum , while the new one would be....????? I'm no longer on the General Staff so don't don't what the plan is....which is part of why so many people have serious reservations.

Moving out of Midland, lock stock and barrel will not grow the CAF.

Old Shep

Shep: Wasn't intended as a cheap shot at Midland. I apologize if it was perceived that way, but Midland isn't exactly known as a tourist hot spot, and if I was to drag my family someplace in the airplane that far and at that expense there needs to be more for them to do.

As for the Mabee Foundation: I am not entirely clear I understand the various breakdowns of the CAF assets, but it appears they are supporting the Museum assets and not the flying portion of the organization. Everything I have read suggest the museum is staying.

I am not sure I have seen where anyone is advocating leaving MAF 'lock, stock and barrel"...maybe there are things happening behind the scenes to make you think that? I sure haven't seen it. Seems to me the citizens and politicos of Midland are the only ones that are suggesting that outcome, and they may very well push the CAF into that if they threaten the lease, lawsuits etc. That would be their loss and another's communities again. Bottom line is, businesses do this all the time. If another party comes forward with a bigger check that will enable to replace existing facilities and assets they do it. Not sure that is happening here, but it is a very real possibility.

Hello all..... well I have been on the sidelines and probably should be not be posting, but (as Old Shep may tell you, I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed) here goes..... Firstly, Old Shep...... my heart bleeds for you.... I know you have indeed been taking a beating in Midland and I am sorry......... Secondly, I do support the bid for the new Airbase w/HQ staff move and do agree that the remaining CAF facilities stay in Midland....




What Bill is saying is indeed correct. The local politicos and others are indeed threatening to terminate the lease agreement to the CAF of ALL facilities in Midland, Tx. if the Hq staff move, period. Which does not make sense because the cities then lose all that has been invested in the ALL of the CAF facilities....the museum, Airsho' etc.....The lease being terminated is what makes Old Shep fearful, in that they (High Sky Wing et al..) will lose their home, everything that they have invested heavily in for over 20 years.....

Ober...that offer did not make the short list....but it was accurate.... to the best of my knowledge, the final offers may not be on the table until after the first of the year....but the cities ARE competing and they know what is to gain. What Steve and the General Staff just cannot come out and blatantly say is that the winning bid may front 85-90% of the new airbase cost..... The winning bid gets a new CAF facility, new (to the area) warbirds on the ramp and in the hangar, a new CAF flagship airshow for October (now you have a trifecta.. WOH, Airsho', and the new Wings Over ??) all major CAF shows. Also an unwritten and mostly unspoken item is that if the winning bid is in the north Texas area, then the potential for a coattail effect of another major warbird museum to join the move, well it rises exponentially.

To address other items mentioned by Me-108 Taifun and others......
The CAF financially is doing well despite the up and down economy. Again, we are in black ink and the Foundation is doing well too... To the best of my knowledge, all of the buildings are paid in full.
In fairness, Steve and the General Staff (in my opinion) have not done a great job in making all of the issues as clear as they should be....then add in the three ring circus from Rep Kraddick and others, then..... you get the point....
One other item that has not been said and I think that it needs to be....... If the final offers are something that is not in the best interest of the CAF..... the staff move and airbase will not happen........
...... alan brooks

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Just call me Al.

Alan:

The gent I spoke with at OSH represented one of the groups that IS on the remaining list of six. I cannot verify the truthfulness of his statement...but he was from a Texas location and one of two which seem to me to be logical locations.

Thanks Tim for the correction......... The number you quoted is also what I understood.....

As an aside, one of the best days I have ever had in aviation, was sitting with you and two other guys in your Twin Beech, on the ramp in Midland, talking about everything from aviation to God.....That talk really helped me get over the hump with the Wildcat loss in Houston the previous year..... Thank you Tim!
Tell Job hello..... Steph asked about him the other day..... alan

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Just call me Al.

Alan: I always enjoyed our visits. Those were the good ole days, before gas was six bucks a gallon

Job is doing well and is currently very interested in airplanes having made the transition from Legos Still very much into animals, in fact we just returned from an African safari on Friday. Believe it or not, he is twelve! Just seems like yesterday he was running around in 'Lil with Gary.

Alan, your comments are much appreciated, as they represent the dilemma I'm stuck in: I want to see the CAF grow, but I don't want to lose what we have in Midland. All of the political noise and problems, some self-inflicted, some caused by people who do not understand the dynamics of the CAF, it gets to be a bit much.

Clearly, I want the CAF to continue to have a presence in Midland. Whether it includes the HQ component or not is not important to me at all. If there is money to build a new National Airbase, go for it. But don't throw the Wing and the city under the bus in the process. I know that Steve Brown and the General Staff don't want to see the CAF presence in Midland disappear, but it is clear they want to move HQ. Guaranteeing those two outcomes is becoming increasingly clouded by lots of noise, which I hate. Steve has released several press announcements about the Museum expansion, the money to be invested in the Midland campus, but for whatever reason, there is great skepticism about that.

When the lease agreement is amended, and the politicians' posturing is over, I will be very happy living in "Disneyland," while "DisneyWorld" gets built.

I am a CAF member, and while I really am not interested in all the politics involved with the CAF I would like to share my thougts. I have been to Midland, and honestly, it seems that Midland would be much more appropriate as a Wing or Squadron location. There just didn't seem to be many people active in that area. Can you imagine all the volunteers Gary Austin would have had show up to work if the Hangar had been located in the DFW area? I get free (sorta) airline travel, and I have never been to Midland to volunteer because it's just not easy to get there. The DFW area would be a completely different story. All this noise about the museum, etc, etc, I have to say, touring the museum took about 30 minutes. It's just not that big a deal compared to what else is out there IMHO
The word is that the CAF needs to grow and I couldn't agree more. If the new direction of the CAF is "Corporate" then so be it. Most Warbird owners have never served in the military or only served one enlistment in my experience of talking to owners. The days of the old grumpy a- holes in silly grey jumpsuits that thought they were hot s-- is hopefully over. In my opinion a lot of the resentment of Brown is that he does not pander to the insider good ol' boys flying club. Good for him. Move to the DFW area, get a lot of fresh new blood involved, and hopefully this dying organization can really begin to prosper.
... And I'm a CAF "youngster" at age 40!!! I bet the average age at our wing meetings is 70+!!!!

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All I did was press this red button here...

OK...my 2 cents. I've never been to Midland. We were planning to go until I realized it was, what I consider, a huge travel hassle it is for us to get there. I suspect that's a problem for many others, too. A 3 hr flight and a 5 hr drive just doesn't have an attraction for me. Being not the least bit familiar with the politics and/or internecine bickering that's going on (and couldn't care less) I'll not address that. I would however, (if I had one), vote for a move of the a/c and airshow to a city that is more convenient to get to.

Mudge

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Land of the free because of the brave

A couple of points to address.

1) Is Midland hard/easy to get to?

The answer to that is no, it isn't the easiest place to get to. But that has been well known. Does it hurt the CAF? Yes. I don't think anyone is arguing this point. A major hub would be a definite advantage. However, the flip side of that is trying to operate an airsho in a TCA and fighting for air space. This was a major discussion item when San Antonio was in the mix 20 years ago. Bottom line is that the CAF needs air space to fly the types of shows we fly.

2) I can't but help think about how it has taken us 20 years to rebuild facilities that we once had in Harlingen. We finally have an "O'Club" so to speak. Maintenance facilities (such as the parts house) have been established. And both the museum and commemorative center are "show places," that we can be proud of. So if we do move, is it going to take us another 20 years to re-establish facilities like this? I realize we are talking about only HQ administrative offices at present. But thinking "futuristically," the idea of re-building once again is a tough one to swallow.

3) Mr. Brown may have some incentives, etc. "in the works" already. And understandably he can't divulge all the details of those incentives. However, this reminds me of standard RFPs (Request for Proposals). In these types of proposals, at least some "hint" of what these sites may be offering could be divulged to the membership. You see, there's great competition this way. And it would give the membership something to base the concept of moving on something concrete. Right now, all we've heard is we "should move."

4) Most importantly folks, and I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself - I just don't like the idea of giving up these types of decisions to just 9 of 11 people on the general staff. At least with the Harlingen to Midland move, the membership (as a whole) ultimately made the decision of where to move.

5) Finally, I want to say this. For all the backlash of the CAF being a "good ol'boys" flying club (full of silly traditions like Col. Cullpepper and gray uniforms), keep in mind the spirit for which Lloyd Nolen and others estabilished the CAF. Was it supposed to be silly? Yes. The gray uniforms were voted for by the membership and were not dictated to us by the current CEO as the "blue shirts and khakis" are of today. And for the record, a lot of those "good ol'boys" spent a lot of their own hard earned money to purchase, restore and fly the airplanes we have today. Without those "good ol'boys" there wouldn't be a FIFI. There wouldn't be a "Red Nose." There wouldn't be an SB2C. Keep insulting our benefactors folks and there won't be any future benefactors out there to donate to the CAF. This organization is dependant upon donations, gifts, etc. from sponsors like myself and my family, who have spent thousands on an organization and an airplane love. Keep insulting the local officials in Midland/Odessa and you'll find yourself not having the funds to take care of current operations. Treat your donors like they didn't mean anything to the organization, and find yourself without future donors. The "silly-ness" of the original CAF made it fun. When things become "un-fun," then you have a lot more problems.

BTW, for the record, I'm still in the under 50 club and female. So please don't tell me that I'm one of the crumudgeons of the CAF. I'm not. I have an extensive background in organizational management in one of the major service organizations and have spent many an hour teaching organizational leadership and membership recruitment/retention. An organization thrives on the backs of many - not just a handpicked few.

Business acuity I can appreciate. But this isn't good business.