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 Post subject: A-26 invader question
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:49 pm 
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Have to admit I simply love that plane. But why is it that for warbird it's not too expensive compared to other aircraft? I'm thinking that the fuel consumption on two r2800s would break the bank

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:14 pm 
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I usually see them go for sale around 100-150,000. Cheaper than houses!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:10 pm 
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Why the value difference?
It would be interesting to see a comparison of the number of airworthy B-25s vs. Invaders.
But it's seen my many as more of a Korean/Vietnam warbird than WWII...so that might make it less desirable.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:34 pm 
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I can see where the b-25 overshadows the a-26,( Doolittle raid.) but do you think getting a airworthy b-25 for 150,000 is capable? It looks like the a-26 holds around that price and it really is a neat plane

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:14 pm 
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whistlingdeathcorsairs wrote:
I can see where the b-25 overshadows the a-26,( Doolittle raid.) but do you think getting a airworthy b-25 for 150,000 is capable? It looks like the a-26 holds around that price and it really is a neat plane


I suspect the B-25 is a much simpler, pre-war design and that leads to much lower maintenance costs. The Invader threads posted here show it to be a fairly complex bird. So for most people, even bigtime warbird guys, the B-25 is going to be a much easier aircraft to own/operate.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:48 pm 
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Interesting and timely discussion!

I think the B-25 has a certain "desirability" factor going for it. The B-25 served with most of the allied air arms, in all combat theatres, in huge numbers, throughout the duration of WW2, and it gained instant and lasting popularity from its use on the Doolittle raid. The A-26, on the other hand, served mainly with the USAAF, in somewhat limited numbers, and it entered combat just a few months before the war ended so it didn't have time to gain the kind of widespread notoriety that the Mitchell did. The Invader was never, to my knowledge, used on any particularly high-profile, attention-grabbing mission (like the Doolittle raid). The Mitchell was a more versatile aircraft, which adds to its notoriety. There wasn't much that a B-25 couldn't do. The A-26 served mainly as a mid-level bomber. The B-25 carried a larger crew and there were a lot more of them in service than there were A-26s, so the public has more of a personal connection with the Mitchell through the larger numbers of family members who served aboard them or serviced them. It's true the Invader served honorably in combat in Korea and again in Southeast Asia, but (and I really do hate this) those two wars are not as "popular" as WW2, and I don't think the public has as much "attachment" to them as they do to WW2. In addition, the Invader's role in Korea and SE Asia was not a major, attention-grabbing role (as compared to B-29s and B-52s doing strategic bombing, or F-86s and F-4s knocking down MiGs). The Invaders filled a niche when they were needed and they did their job quite well, but they weren't "big time". What's the point of all this? A more famous airplane brings a bigger price.

Another factor may be a difference in restoration costs. Many of today's surviving A-26s were converted into executive transports. The conversion involved extensive structural modification, and these ships cannot easily be restored to WW2 configuration. Many other A-26 survivors were heavily modified for aerial firefighting duites, and while those mods can be reversed, it can be a difficult and costly process. Most surviving B-25s were not modified that heavily so they can be restored to a more original look more easily and at a lower cost.

Could availability of parts also be a contributor? There were a lot more B-25s made than A-26s, so it stands to reason that parts should be easier to obtain for Mitchells than for Invaders.

How about "usefulness" in today's warbird world? Many bomber operators help defray their operating costs by carrying riders on flight experiences. A stock Invader doesn't have a lot of room for passenger seats so it can't take many guests, whereas a stock Mitchell has plenty of room for added seats. The more riders you can take up, the more the airplane can help pay its way. An executive-converted A-26 can take several riders, but riding in an executive interior doesn't offer a guest that same "warbird" feel as riding in a stark, noisy Mitchell and being able to put their hands on those .50s and make gunnery noises. When guests cough up hundreds of dollars to take a flight in a bomber, they expect it to look, sound, and feel like a bomber, not an executive airplane. Look at the number of B-25s that offer rides versus the number of A-26s that offer rides. It's pretty clear which one's more "useful" in that regard.

Neither the Mitchell nor the Invader could ever be called "economical" to operate, though from what I've heard, the Mitchell costs somewhat less in fuel consumption.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:35 am 
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I would think supply and demand comes into play. There are quite a few A-26s still extant and airworthy, which will drive the price downwards. However, in the case of the P-51, which is relatively plentiful, the demand is so high that they continue to command top dollar. For instance, if the Burma Spitfires turned out to be as great of a claim as originally thought, the availability of all these airframes likely would not have altered the market price for a Spitfire simply because the demand is so great.

While I would agree with k5dh to a point about being able to recoup expenses through rides, if that was truly the case, then the C-47 / DC-3 should be the most expensive warbird out there. They are not. Planes like the A-26, the C-47 and I would include the Avenger in this category, too, while being very well appreciated by historians and warbird afficianados, are not as universally recognized or desired by the general public, or those who have the money to get into the warbird game. The single engine fighter continues to be the most popular choice and the planes that draw the highest prices (with the B-17 being the exception to this).

The B-25 / A-26 comparison follows this. The B-25 is more universally recognized and more in demand. That probably shouldn't be the case. The A-26 is a great bird, having served in three wars, and with a pair of 2800s, it must be an absolute kick in the pants to fly. However, unless you are a true airplane fan, the Invader is often overlooked for the great plane that it is.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:44 am 
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I certainly desire a a-26 if I had the money. It sure would turn heads anywhere you landed. Plus depending on the model, it has duel controls. The b-25 is indeed a true warbird and probably wanted much more than a invader. But given the economy and warbird circuit, if you were to obtain a a-26 for 125,000, that's not too shabby! Look how much houses can go for these days

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:59 am 
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I seem to remember reading something once upon a time that many if not most A-26 series Invaders had corrosion and/or cracking issues with the ring-bulkhead wing spar carry-through structures in the fuselage. That might have an effect on their market value.

It also seems to me that whatever reasons you can speculate about in regard to their popularity (or not) in the Warbird and airshow circuits would also apply to and have an effect on their "popularity" (if you want to call it that) with the Air Tanker/Water Bomber community too - wouldn't it? At least in terms of economy of operation, conversion, repair, etc.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:51 pm 
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It seems the post I did last night did not post for some reason... So here is what I said, again.

One factor also to consider is the cockpit. The B-25 has the ability for two pilots to share the workload. Most A-26's, at least the ones currently for sale, only have the single cockpit station. How this plays into desirability is that with the dual cockpit setup, you insurance will be lower due to the decrease in risk by having two pilots.

Our museum was looking into the feasibility of getting an A-26, with interest in Talichet's A-26 at the 1941HAG. However, because it has only the single cockpit station, it would not work for us for the price. This particular plane has already been reduced in asking price, twice now, by a total of over 25% from the original asking price.

Likewise, we previously had an OV-1D that was built as a D model. Had it been flying still when we sold it earlier this year, it would have commended a higher price than a single seat OV-1C or a C model that was converted to a D model.

As for the operating cost side someone commented or asked about. Our C-123 which was not built for speed and has R-2800-99W engines producing 2,500Hp each. The A-26 has R-2800-27 engines producing 2,000hp each. I would imagine that power settings would be similar and fuel flow rates would likewise be similar. We cruise around 130kts burning 110GPH per engine. I would assume that the A-26 might burn the same or a little less but will go considerably faster at that burn rate.

However, no matter what plane you are in, it is always a non-linear line for costs for a linear line of increase in speed.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:56 pm 
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flightsimer wrote:
It seems the post I did last night did not post for some reason... So here is what I said, again.

One factor also to consider is the cockpit. The B-25 has the ability for two pilots to share the workload. Most A-26's, at least the ones currently for sale, only have the single cockpit station. How this plays into desirability is that with the dual cockpit setup, you insurance will be lower due to the decrease in risk by having two pilots.

Our museum was looking into the feasibility of getting an A-26, with interest in Talichet's A-26 at the 1941HAG. However, because it has only the single cockpit station, it would not work for us for the price. This particular plane has already been reduced in asking price, twice now, by a total of over 25% from the original asking price.

Likewise, we previously had an OV-1D that was built as a D model. Had it been flying still when we sold it earlier this year, it would have commended a higher price than a single seat OV-1C or a C model that was converted to a D model.

As for the operating cost side someone commented or asked about. Our C-123 which was not built for speed and has R-2800-99W engines producing 2,500Hp each. The A-26 has R-2800-27 engines producing 2,000hp each. I would imagine that power settings would be similar and fuel flow rates would likewise be similar. We cruise around 130kts burning 110GPH per engine. I would assume that the A-26 might burn the same or a little less but will go considerably faster at that burn rate.

However, no matter what plane you are in, it is always a non-linear line for costs for a linear line of increase in speed.


How much is the geneseo one asking for? Is it a flying example?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:23 pm 
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whistlingdeathcorsairs wrote:
How much is the geneseo one asking for? Is it a flying example?
The estate is asking $159,000 for it currently. When it was first listed, it was over $200,000. It is flyable, though it has not flown much if at all since it was put on display at 41HAG.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:55 pm 
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I had always considered myself a B-25 fan as I love the short stacks at idle. But after seeing this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iayVNS20rc
A-26 BABY!!

Would I kill myself.....................probably :D

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:36 pm 
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Daaamn, he rolled an A-26.....can't say I've ever seen that before. Thanks for posting the vid.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:55 am 
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Tint wrote:
Daaamn, he rolled an A-26.....can't say I've ever seen that before. Thanks for posting the vid.


http://napoleon130.tripod.com/id510.html

They have been looped as well... Completely contrary to instructions in the flight manual.


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