ADS-B Out

CrewDawg · **Posted:** Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:48 pm

Has anyone out there been paying attention to the coming changes in the FAR's in 2020 regarding ADS-B Out? In a nutshell, instead of ATC using radar to track planes, they will start using a combination of transponders and GPS. There are very specific equipment requirements for what GPS and transponders will be compatible with the new system. If you are not properly equipped you will not be able to fly in class A, B or C airspace.

I'm not posting this to start a bashfest on the FAA, so please take those comments somewhere else. I'm looking for a reasonable (insert jokes here) conversation on how this affects warbirds, and what cost effective options are out there for warbird owner/operators. If you are thinking about an avionics upgrade, make sure whatever you decide on is ADS-B Out compatible.

Brenden S · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:27 am

We have the same issue here in Australia. For my local airport the deadline is next year.

PeteRing · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:22 am

Hello,

I work in the Avionics industry and my company is extremely focused on the development of Certified ADS-B Solutions. I also host monthly ADS-B webinars that talk mostly about "What is ADS-B". You can find the calendar for these on the bottom of our website www.freeflightsystems.com

I would also like to make myself available to everyone on here to answer any ADS-B related questions any of you may have.

I can be reached by email or Cell phone:
pring@freeflightsystems.com
Cell: 254-495-3077

Thanks!
Pete Ring
Aftermarket Sales Manager
FreeFlight Systems
pring@freeflightsystems.com
254-495-3077

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:36 am

For warbirds it probably doesn't mean a whole lot since the regulations already restrict most warbirds from entering Class B airspace already.

On the serious side, most newer panel-mount GPS receivers and Mode-S transponders should comply with the ADS-B requirements with only software/firmware upgrades, so unless you only fly with a hand-held GPS and don't have a mode-S transponder installed, it shouldn't be too much additional cost.

Also, remember this is just a preliminary notice. The FAA's issue is that most of its radar antennas are 50+ years old and replacing that massive infrastructure is going to cost way more than Congress is ever going to authorize (look at NextGen and how much its price has ballooned because Congress will never fully fund it). As a result, they're looking for ways to remove that infrastructure as much as possible and reduce that ongoing cost. ADS-B Out is being embraced by most ICAO countries, so the FAA is joining on the bandwagon. Whether it'll work in very congested airspace or not will be questioned for some time, but it's showing some promising signs up in Alaska, so we'll see what happens between now and 7 years from now, because if the way the FAA's been jerked around to date is any indication, by the time we get to 2018, the requirement will be totally changed.

PeteRing · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:29 pm

I want to help everyone fully understand ADS-B as a whole and a big part of that is helping to clear up any misinformation on the technology and the implementation of both the ground based towers and the avionics.
To start, the ADS-B mandate was actually published as FINAL RULE back in May of 2010, in that rule it states that all aircraft operating within a set guidelines of airspace have to be equipped with ADS-B Out Technology by January 1, 2020. That airspace is as follows:
- Class A Airspace
- Any where in the US Airspace System 10,000 feet and above
- Class B Airspace, including the airspace above Class B to 10,000 feet, and including the Mode C ring around this airspace.
- Class C Airspace, including the airspace above Class C to 10,000 feet.

Now the FAA issued this mandate in 2010 with the intent of allowing for a 10 year window to equip, this 10 years breaks down as following:
3 years for Avionics manufacturers to develop and certify product and 7 years to complete the retro fit of some 150K aircraft. To be fair, we the manufactures where closer to the 4 year range for certified products.
Additionally the 10 years allowed time for the implementation of the ADS-B ground infrastructure that today is well past 2/3 completion and will be fully installed and functional in the first quarter of 2014. You can find a map of the current ADS-B coverage here: http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/flashMap/index.cfm this map is updated periodically and as of August 9, 2013 there where 547 active towers in the United States allowing for that 2/3rds coverage to exist today.

I am extremely familiar with the technology as a whole and will make myself available to anyone that has questions on any of it.

Pete

51fixer · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:48 pm

For those A/C, like the P-51 and T-6 that are either Limited or Standard Category A/C but don't have a lot of room or maybe they have a desire to keep as original an appearance as possible, what antennas and boxes are required and what are there sizes?

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:11 pm

Sorry, call me skeptical, but since "Next Gen" has been in process since the mid-1990's, I don't consider any "final rule/mandate" as being "final" until we get within a couple years of when it goes into effect. WAAS got delayed several times, NextGen is still being delayed as we speak. Same with the airspace. I believe they'll enact it for Class B, but I have questions of whether it'll be enforced within the entire Mode-C veil, mainly because of what happened with Mode-S and them dropping the requirement for Mode-S within the veil.

PeteRing · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:54 pm

One thing I neglected to mention was that my company really wouldn't have a solution for the Warbird market unless you chose to pursue your own STC's so to be clear I have no ulterior motives.
Equipment for the most part is either a Mode-S/ES Transponder and WAAS/GPS (WAAS/GPS can be a remote mount unit, not necessary a panel mount unit) or you can keep your existing transponder and utilize a UAT (Universal Access Transceiver) solution that in most cases has an internal WAAS/GPS, this system would be a remote mount system. In both cases the antenna requirements are most commonly a Ball and Stick Antenna on the bottom of the aircraft and the WAAS/GPS antenna on the top of the aircraft. I apologize, I don't have specific dimensions for you on those units/antennas.

For CAPFlyer:
I understand your skepticism, your not alone on that. Not many people reference the WAAS delay though, that is a first. Most people usually reference RVSM or the 406ELT "Mandate". The big difference between the WAAS thing, RVSM, and the 406 ELT thing is the financial benefits the FAA will receive from the implementation of ADS-B. Currently, in 2013 the FAA is spending some $940,000,000+ annually to maintain the current ground based Radar network in the USA. ADS-B will drastically reduce that annual number by eliminating areas that currently have double and triple coverage of Radar. ADS-B will become the primary source of aircraft surveillance in the US and a single layer of Radar will remain as the backup. The reduction of operating cost is a huge motivator for the FAA. Additionally, I have spoken with several FAA folks in the FAA SBS (Surveillance Broadcast Systems) office about possible delays on the mandate or possible changes and they are rather adamant abut not letting it change for a few specific reasons:
1. ADS-B is an FAA born technology. Europe has a mandate that goes into effect starting in 2015, Australia has a mandate that is going into effect in December of this year, Brazil has a mandate for offshore drilling operations that's going into effect in 2014. The FAA already feels like the US is behind the curve on this and that is a point of embarrassment for several folks since this is our technology. Canada, Mexico, the over land portion of Brazil and several countries in Asia are also talking about ADS-B and should all be publishing their requirements within the next 18 months. This is a global change, not just a US FAA thing.
2. There are some 547+ ground stations installed and operational in the US today. Each on of those ground stations signifies a financial investment into this program and technology, a program that is aimed at reducing the current cost of maintaining ground based radar.

Mode-S was never actually mandated.

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:18 pm

Mode S and TCAS II is mandated for all airplanes operated under FAR 14 CFR 135 and 14 CFR 121 as of 2005. They originally wanted Mode S on everything flying into the Mode C veil, but it was argued that simply directing (but not mandating) that Mode S be part of all new production transponders be the way to go and the mandate was dropped, which is how 406 should've been handled.

PeteRing · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:25 pm

You are correct on 135 and 121 operations. Everything I was talking about pertains to Part 91 ops.

mgeorge51 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:51 pm

Does anyone know how they are going to handle aircraft with no electrical systems based at class c airports.

I have 5 of them now.

PeteRing · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:04 pm

As part of the 14 CFR 92.225 (the ADS-B mandate regulation) it states that any aircraft that was originally certified without an electrical system does NOT need to equip with ADS-B out. They are exempt.

CrewDawg · **Posted:** Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:25 pm

Just to give everyone an idea, here is the quote I got from a local avionics shop. Option #1 is just an ADS-B Out transponder with no GPS, Option #2 is also just a Garmin ADS-B Out transponder with no GPS and Option #3 is an ADS-B Out transponder with a WAAS/GPS receiver (no cockpit GPS display). The thought behind Options 1 and 2 is to get the transponder now so we can fly (the plane doesn't have a transponder at all now) and then spend the money on the GPS later. These are bare bones, just meet the FAR requirement options. Obviously everyone would want to be able to take advantage of the GPS data for navigation, but these options are just to provide a GPS signal to the transponder for ATC tracking. That same GPS data can be fed to a display unit for navigation, for a small phenomenal fee. :rolleyes:

Option 1:
Furnish and install factory new Trig TT-22 Transponder system.
Total Price-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------$3,750.00
Option 2:
Furnish and install factory new Garmin GTX330ES Transponder.
Total Price-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------$5,250.00
Option 3:
Furnish and install factory new FreeFlight Systems RANGR 1090TX Transponder with 1201 WAAS/GPS. (Note: this system is not available until sometime first quarter 2014).
Total Price-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------$10,750.00

For those of you who are concerned about cockpit/panel space like I am, the Trig and Freeflight systems have control heads that fit in a standard instrument hole and a small remote unit that can be installed somewhere else in the aircraft.

ADS-B Out is coming and I hope warbird owners, operators and crew chiefs are thinking about it. I'm not saying you have to run out and buy a bunch of avionics today, but you should educate yourself on the requirements, what is already on the market and what's coming. I have this gut feeling that a lot of warbirds are going to be caught with their pants down in 2020.

Kyleb · **Posted:** Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:44 pm

The truly unfortunate thing about ADS-B is its expense to the aircraft owner. Right now, I can buy a WAAS enabled Garmin GPS puck for <$100. That puck will report its position and velocity vector with astounding accuracy. But it'll never pass the FAA's uber restrictive certification process for the GPS requirement for ADS-B.

Here's one of several devices Garmin offers:

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/oem/sen ... 27594.html

The FAA has mandated 99.999999 percent solutions where 99.999% solutions would be an massive improvement over the current system. Those last several orders of magnitude (primarily on the reliability side) are incredibly expensive.

RobC · **Posted:** Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:34 pm

Bill, a lot of us are in our 50's and 60's. We don't even know if we will be flying in 2020. It is just too soon to worry about it. Also, the cost you quote for the cheapest option isn't that much more than a new battery for a T-6 (Concorde stopped making lead acid batteries and the last Gill I bought lasted two years, so we are looking at 2200 for a decent battery).

All-in-all, just not that big a deal in 2014. My 2 cents.

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