B-17G without cheek guns?

Chris Brame · **Posted:** Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:33 pm

As you may guess, this is related to the Paducah B-17G. I found this shot of 42-102783 online:

Note the lack of a cheek gun mount. Next (from aerovintage.com), the Paducah bird, which is possibly 42-102834:

Again no cheek gun mount. Next (ibid), 42-102829:

Cheek gun that's darker than the rest of the skin.

My question: Were these cheek gun positions added at modification centers rather than the factory, so some planes didn't get them? Was this usually on trainer versions within the 42-102XXX block?
Over to the WIXperts...
Edit: Another trainer from the 452nd BG site, 42-102768:

(Scott, if there's a problem with me using the images I'll change them to links)

Steve Nelson · **Posted:** Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:46 pm

Whwn the chin turret was first introdueced, the cheek guns were eliminated with the assumption that the turret would be sufficient for nose defense. The AAF quickly decided that cheek guns were still necessary. At first they were added at mod centers, then later incorporated on the production line.

I can't see the last two pics on my tablet, but the first one looks to be a Stateside training aircraft..probably an early G that didn't get the cheek gun mod since it wasn't going into combat.

SN

daviemax · **Posted:** Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:07 am

I agree with SN's comments. The large numbers on the nose are a strong indicator this was a training aircraft. Some B-17G's went into combat without cheek guns.

Post-war G's can be found with no cheek gun windows. VB-17G 483634 is an example.

Ken · **Posted:** Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:22 am

daviemax wrote:

Post-war G's can be found with no cheek gun windows.

Would it be correct to say a post-war G without cheek windows could have been either:
A) An early G used for training that never got the mod, or
B) A G whose cheek window(s) were removed post-war

I don't have time to check, but wasn't there something from the "Best Years of Our Lives" discussion regarding the final boneyard scene where the B-17 used either in the boneyard or in the studio had a single cheek window, not 2? Maybe it was an F model with cheek window(s) added? Memory fade on the details of that discussion ...

Ken

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:39 am

There are quite a few period photos of early B-17Gs in combat areas with only one cheek mount fitted (usually the starboard side), presumably in-theatre modifications from restricted stock supply.

B-17 guy · **Joined:** Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:43 pm **Posts:** 153

Like steve said, the early G models didnt get the cheek mounts. Some that were sent overseas later got them added in the field, others did not for one reason or another.

There is no whiz-bang 100% correct single answer for your question Ken. Each aircraft was assigned to a unit who would decide what was to be done with each aircraft, and that is just one factor in which planes got what mods. Alot of it simply had to do with what end what end of the supply chain you were on.

Post war G's, again, individual need f each aircraft for each mission. I find it doubtful that many early G models would be used postwar consider most either went to combat/overseas or to training units, and considering that B-17's were produced right up to the end of the war, why use older ones when there were brand new ones available.

hang the expense · **Posted:** Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:57 pm

Ken wrote:

daviemax wrote:

Post-war G's can be found with no cheek gun windows.

Would it be correct to say a post-war G without cheek windows could have been either:
A) An early G used for training that never got the mod, or
B) A G whose cheek window(s) were removed post-war

I don't have time to check, but wasn't there something from the "Best Years of Our Lives" discussion regarding the final boneyard scene where the B-17 used either in the boneyard or in the studio had a single cheek window, not 2? Maybe it was an F model with cheek window(s) added? Memory fade on the details of that discussion ...

Ken

Hard to put the small windows back in place of the cheek windows because of the structure removed to install the cheek windows to include removal of part of the longerons.

daviemax · **Posted:** Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:36 pm

B-17 guy wrote:

Like steve said, the early G models didnt get the cheek mounts. Some that were sent overseas later got them added in the field, others did not for one reason or another.

There is no whiz-bang 100% correct single answer for your question Ken. Each aircraft was assigned to a unit who would decide what was to be done with each aircraft, and that is just one factor in which planes got what mods. Alot of it simply had to do with what end what end of the supply chain you were on.

Post war G's, again, individual need f each aircraft for each mission. I find it doubtful that many early G models would be used postwar consider most either went to combat/overseas or to training units, and considering that B-17's were produced right up to the end of the war, why use older ones when there were brand new ones available.

Actually the use of some F and many G models in the early post-war period was very random, with relatively early G's being used extensively and some late-production aircraft scrapped. The process was very localized and unscientific, especially in the late '45-'46 period. Basically G models in serial blocks 43-39-, 44-6-, 44-8-, 4-483, and 4-485- made up the bulk of the postwar survivors. Most - but not all - of these aircraft were factory-built (or subsequently modified) to have two check gun mounts. After the war some aircraft were modified to eliminate these mounts; however this modification was applied to a small minority of aircraft. Most CB, DB, EB, MB, QB, RB, SB, VB, and WB applications were equipped with cheek window mounts. However, only SB's (and possibly a couple of RB's) used in the Korean War actually carried guns in them.

Steve Nelson · **Posted:** Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:12 am

I believe the drone controller B-17s had the left-hand bulged cheek gun mount replaced with a flat window for camera equipment. The B-17G that used to be at the NMUSAF (now at the Air Mobility Command Museum in Dover) had this mod, as well as the B-17G currently in storage at Fantasy of Flight (formerly owned by Junior Birchinal.)

I've seen pics of several firefighting B-17Gs that only have the small nose windows. The "Movie Memphis Belle" still has them. I find it odd that she wasn't fitted with the large flat cheek gun windows when she recieved all the other cosmetic mods to resemble an F..especially since they went to the trouble of reskinning the lower nose, rather than just adding a patch over the hole for the chin turret.

SN

daviemax · **Posted:** Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:53 am

Steve Nelson wrote:

I believe the drone controller B-17s had the left-hand bulged cheek gun mount replaced with a flat window for camera equipment. The B-17G that used to be at the NMUSAF (now at the Air Mobility Command Museum in Dover) had this mod, as well as the B-17G currently in storage at Fantasy of Flight (formerly owned by Junior Birchinal.)

I've seen pics of several firefighting B-17Gs that only have the small nose windows. The "Movie Memphis Belle" still has them. I find it odd that she wasn't fitted with the large flat cheek gun windows when she recieved all the other cosmetic mods to resemble an F..especially since they went to the trouble of reskinning the lower nose, rather than just adding a patch over the hole for the chin turret.

SN

You are correct on some DB's. I'll look to see how common this mod was for them as a group. Regarding the "movie Memphis Belle" it occurs to me that after military service a lot of civilian B-17's received varying mods to nose windows - some eliminated altogether, some modified to fit various functions (witness the IGN aircraft). As examples: aircraft N5225V (former PB-1W 485679) had left-forward window eliminated; aircraft CP-753 (19210) with none (after cargo bay mod); and N809Z (483785) lost middle window LH side.

The more photos reviewed the more variations are seen - including variations in window treatment among VB's etc.

daviemax · **Posted:** Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:30 pm

One other comment: the aircraft at the top of this thread (2102783), after delivery to Pyote AAF in April '44, was stationed at several locations (all stateside) throughout the war before ending up at Walnut Ridge for disposition in January '46. Likely it was a trainer. What is not clear is the reason for being shifted among eight air bases during that time.

daviemax · **Posted:** Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:51 am

PS This photo and some companion photos are up for auction on eBay as of this writing.

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B-17G without cheek guns?

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