B777 accident at SFO July 6, 2013

[CAPFlyer]

Are we sure that's the #2 engine next to the fuselage?

From what I can see on the impact, the engines were at or near idle at impact. There was no attempt to go around. They just let the thing settle in low. Had the engines been producing significant power, there would have been a lot more damage to the engine cowlings.

[WallyB]

Are we sure that's the #2 engine next to the fuselage?

From what I can see on the impact, the engines were at or near idle at impact. There was no attempt to go around.

NTSB briefing says crew did call for and initiate a go around, but far too late.

On Jul 7th the NTSB reported in a press conference at San Francisco Airport, the crew was cleared for a visual approach to runway 28L, the crew acknowledged, flaps were set at 30 degrees, gear was down, Vapp was 137 knots, a normal approach commenced, no anomalies or concerns were raised within the cockpit, 7 seconds prior to impact a crew member called for speed, 4 seconds prior to impact the stick shaker activated, a call to go-around happened 1.5 seconds prior to impact, this data based on a first read out of the cockpit voice recorder.

[Punisher05]

As y'all's friendly FAA Part 139 and runway maintenance guy, the overhead view of the runway tells me a little bit.

All of the touchdown zone markings have an extra set that are "blacked out", or they have been moved. That tells me at some point in its history, 28L went directly up to the edge of the seawall or at least darned close to it When they were moved to their present position, a displaced threshold was installed...fairly small, I'd guess at 300' or so...likely to avoid hitting said seawall.

We have ILS's go up and down all the time. A lot of people are surprised how tall grass can interfere with a glide slope antenna. The beam doesn't shoot directly out from the antenna, it bounces off the ground in front of it (hence the ILS Critical Areas marked on some airports) before it goes up and out.

From my experience as an airport guy, considering the WX was clear and ILS use wasn't mandatory I'd have a hard time saying there wasn't a significant part of pilot error involved...too low and too slow, especially with that displaced threshold in place.

Has anybody seen pictures of the tail section from the plane? I'd guess its in the bay if not.

Glad it wasn't much, much worse though. Just my $0.02.


-Brandon

[airknocker]

Just happy to hear a "just the facts as we presently know them" NTSB briefing than the incessant blather from self-proclaimed experts and instant "aviation reporters".
Debbie Hersman has a CDL and a motorcycle license, maybe we could get her some flight time?

[CAPFlyer]

The vertical and horizontal surfaces were on the runway. I'd suspect about all that's in the bay are the APU and bits of "exploded" skin. With the plane stalled on impact and the entire force of the vertical stab acting downward against that area, the tail fuselage structure would have had very little chance of surviving in any large pieces.

[Obergrafeter]

I was always amazed at how wrong the media could get information about aircraft accidents so wrong. Yesterday I watched the "Chairwoman" of the NTSB, (not a spokesman, or PR type, but the head master, the big cheese , the person in charge) refer to the crash on twenty-eight right! Not two-eight right but Twenty-eight right (or left whichever one it was). Have we changed the way we talk about degrees??

[Punisher05]

The vertical and horizontal surfaces were on the runway. I'd suspect about all that's in the bay are the APU and bits of "exploded" skin. With the plane stalled on impact and the entire force of the vertical stab acting downward against that area, the tail fuselage structure would have had very little chance of surviving in any large pieces.

Ah, there we go, fair enough. I haven't seen anything that focused on them, mainly the fuselage section.

Cheers.


-Brandon

[myteaquinn]

As sad as the crash was one of the victims may have been killed by the "first responders".

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/O ... 651323.php

[WallyB]

As sad as the crash was one of the victims may have been killed by the "first responders".

If true that is simply horrendous.

[Punisher05]

It's possible, but I sure hope that's not what happened. I remember the interviews they did with the ARFF guys trying to get out to UA 232 when it went down in the corn field at Sioux City, and them praying they wouldn't run over anybody laying in the crops as they headed to the scene.

The FAA requirement is 3 minutes from the alarm going off to flowing water at the scene...naturally in a real world incident they're going to be putting the pedal down to get there ASAP.


-Brandon

[SaxMan]

I think it is interesting that just a few days ago we were having a discussion about the "Sabre Dance": Coming in too low, too slow and getting behind the power curve, and that seems to be what occurred in this accident. It's a miracle that this incident wasn't far more costly.

[CAPFlyer]

Thing is, with a 777, there really isn't a "curve" to get behind. With the FADEC engines, the response time is pretty quick. The problem is he stalled the freaking airplane. Yes, the stick shakers activate prior to the wing actually stalling, but the pitch up just prior to impact indicates either the horizontal stab stalled or he pulled REALLY HARD just before impact. The NTSB says the throttles responded "normally", however without seeing the readout, the video seems to show that "normally" means that they had about 1 second to respond to a throttle command, by which point it was too late as the tail was impacting the seawall and weren't producing any significant thrust because there were no signs of engine plumes in the post impact and the #2 engine stayed with the airplane even after separating from the pylon.

The more information that comes out, the worse and worse the Captain looks and the worse the airline looks because if it's true that there was NO call of being low or slow until just before impact, then that means that culture won for the 5th time over CRM and people died.

[fotobass]

Here's a question I have...

This was a pilot new to the 777, but well experienced outside of that. I find myself wondering what the supervisory pilots were focusing on, and why they didn't catch the issue before it became unrecoverable? If they're the ones who are most familiar with the aircraft, shouldn't they potentially have recognized the situation before the PIC?

[CAPFlyer]

See my post above, second paragraph. It's something ingrained into their psyche. The Captain shall not be questioned.

[zorro7]

B-777 Folks:

I have the same questions of Pbass:

..Where was the FO (Fully Q Capt) during those 7 seconds?? What about the seat 5 pilots??

p.s if any one has seen pics of the nose landing gear plz post. Tks