Warbird Information Exchange

Who would be dumb enough to buy a digital image on ebay when by googling you can get the original?

Smart guy that P.T.Barnum.

Mark thanks for all the pictures you have shared with us (especially the P-40's). I understand your position and agree with it. All it takes is a few to ruin it for the many!

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A&P/I.A., A.A.S./Aviation Maintenance technology
Warbird salvage/recovery
One day I'll get that P-40!

Remember my post on this thread from a month ago????
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49470
Even if they came from SDAM or NMNA or AFM they're in the public domain. In SDAM's case maybe 99.5 % are but all there photos are tagged with "NO KNOWN COPYWRIGHT RESTRICTIONS". Why because they're gov't photos and they clearly don't care. Even if there from Grandpa Joe's scrapbook and even if they took them himself. #1 the scrapbook photos usually have been printed 100s of times by the unit photog and yes their gov't photos. #2 Even if Grandpa Joe took them himself the copywrght claim is highly questionable. Why because he was on gov't time, on a gov't base and the P-51 or F4U is gov't property. It makes not much sense to me to be upset when photo you downloaded off the internet is downloaded again after your upload. It happens to me EVERY day! I see my photos recycled here all the time. Heck just hit search on wix rather than downloading them the uploading them to photobucket and then posting them again on the same forum. I understand Mark's frustration seeing his effort taken advantage off. I've been trying to swallow that bitter pill for years. I looked at that guys ebay photos and yup saw a few of mine in there. They matched up to my edits perfectly. I don't know where he got his but I know where I got mine. I even see some of mine in Mark's post. Many of mine have ended up on flickr where Mark found them. Did Mark do that?? H*LL no he didn't but others have. Mark don't do stuff like that!! Read that thread over again. It's about respect....you see all those 357th FG pilot photos that sabre/wixlover/liberator/phil/whomever appropoiated for his webpage I was upset about that and they are still up there with no credit, no permission and no respect. My advice to Mark is to keep posting if it makes you happy. Don't et someone else ruin it. Just expect the photos you post to end up all over the net.

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Don't touch my junk!!

Mark--

Perfectly understand your decision....just glad you made it today---and not a month ago! Dave
Hamilton was THRILLED BEYOND BELIEF with the photos of his C-47 you presented. I know you got his message and he heard yours. He was delighted. I think he would say that if you can do that again in any small way for anyone else it is worth the effort...but he would certainly understand the decision you have made.

Dave

Digital image stealing is becoming more common. When I post images that are not common etc I watermark the sugar out of them.

Hey Mark
I too have really enjoyed all of your Photo posts, like I use to enjoy Jacks
I would definitely support any decision you have to make.
It would be good to be able to stop these low life losers from profiting from something that is clearly not theirs.
Maybe you could send the guy in your Avatar after them

Thanks again Mark I'm hoping for the best.

Andy Scott

Sorry you've reached this decision Mark. FWIW, I would question whether you should feel quite so wronged.

As far as legal rights go -- and Wix discussion of these matters tends to remind me of the news coverage of airplane accidents that we admire so much -- you would have an argument if the pic really is "yours" or "solely yours". But that only means one of two things, either (1) you took the picture, and on your own time at that, or (2) you have a full written assignment from whoever did, so that even the original photographer no longer has rights because he signed them all over to you.

For any other photo, anyone (or everyone) could have the same rights as you have, and they also might have independent access to it. Yes, you can tell by editing if your particular pic is the route he took to get it. You've saved him some work; he's a free-rider. If you hate that, you have to discourage through non-legal means.

Watermarks are okay up to a point, but they are like stringing rope around your plane at a fly-in. They're an irritating eyesore for the majority who respect your rights, somewhat useful for reminding the thoughtless, but useless against those who understand they're not supposed to touch but don't care.

IMO the best strategy to limit re-use of your photos is to keep the quality (resolution) low. I have posted and will continue to post thousands of photos that are "solely mine" in the legal sense described above, with no watermarks. But my max size is 0.5 megapixels (i.e. 800x600 for a screen-formatted photo, 800x533 for an uncropped 35mm, 700x700 for a square frame). Nobody can make a decent print bigger than 3x5" out of that.

Your photos have been a bit higher res than I would post but anyone who is printing them 8x10" for ebay is selling junk. His customers are being ripped off much more than you. Consider downsizing your posted pics a little bit. If he's using your pics, you control his product quality. He won't get much repeat business if his prints are fuzzy and pixellated.

My view of it would be, since it's unlikely you have any enforceable rights of any value in most if not all of the pics, just forget about the free-riders and focus on why you are doing it. It is almost impossible to completely shut down free-riding if you do anything of value in life unless you keep it to yourself. When I do a book or chapter or article, I know I'm educating my competitors, even giving them something they can repackage to go after my clients. Can't be helped, and my efforts still benefit me. Think of the major news outlets who do all the journalistic digging only to have all their content "aggregated" by the Huffington Post and the like. Bugs them to no end, but they still do their thing. Does the knowledge of someone else sponging off your efforts really diminish the satisfaction you get from sharing the photos all that much? If you're feeling especially generous you might look upon the ebay sellers as a way to extend the enjoyment of "your" photos by spreading them to an audience that doesn't read this forum.

August

A high point of my day is to visit WIX and see a new post by 'Mark Allen M'

Sadly, no more.....

Thanks for all the great pictures

Mark;
Thank you for all those postings. I really enjoyed them and many here obviously feel the same way. WIX is, after all, about "Warbird Information" and you supplied a ton of it. Thank you.
I agree with what August stated above. If you post them in a pixel size format, then enlargement is useless and if some one on WIX legitimately asks for a larger image, then you can e-mail it to them if you chose.
I know re-sizing can take more time than just straight posting, but it might be a win-win for you and WIX.
Something to think about.
Mark, thanks for the journey.
Jerry

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"Always remember that, when you enter the ocean or the forest, you are no longer at the top of the food chain."

I'm gonna jump in on Jack's side here. I, too, deeply appreciate your efforts and you've managed to pull out some stuff that quite literally surprised me- and that just doesn't happen much, considering how many hundreds of thousands of wartime images I've looked at over the years. You've got one he11 of an archive, and one he11 of a "nose" for finding new stuff. Yes, it sucks massively when some unrepentant douchenozzle tries to flip them on Ebay... typical of so many in today's world, trying to make a quick buck off the hard work of others.

But here's the thing: in my humble opinion, the value of the service you provide to the hundreds of us who peruse WIX (that's including lurkers... I'm assuming it's in the hundreds, anyways ) by posting these unusual and highly interesting photos FAR outweighs any potential damage incurred from the aforementioned douchenozzle trying to sell them on Ebay. You are a good guy, Mark, and your efforts are absolutely appreciated by many, MANY folks, myself included. Your reaction is absolutely understandable- I've found a few of my images out and about as well. But ultimately, I came to peace with it after realizing the benefits of continuing to post far outweighed the aggravation of dealing with the thieving underwear stains who copied the pics for reposting elsewhere.

I do hope you'll reconsider, but absolutely will not think less of you if you don't.

Cheers,

Lynn

PS: Just tell Ebay that the guy is selling photos with swastikas on them... they'll be on him like white on rice.

I've written on here before about my neighbor who passed away last year. We've been restoring many of his old photos to include his service flying the KB-29M and rare color photos of the 1946 Cleveland Races (and those will be shared when we're ready).

He led an amazing life but now he is gone and so many little things that were dear to him are now just regular "things" again ... a favorite wrench, a special t-shirt, an AM radio that had been a wedding gift ... things that were like gold one day can be in the trash or at a flea market the next. Sure, we remember, revere, and miss him, but the painful truth for ALL of us is that, after a certain number of years pass, it will be as if none of us was ever here. Just because I keep his favorite wrench, there's every chance it will become meaningless to folks when I'm gone. This goes whether you are Joe Schmoe, a Space Shuttle pilot, or were the 15th President.

I guess this is a long-winded way of saying that sometimes (even when we're 100% right) we get hung up on the little things when, in the big picture, we should focus more on a big thing: what makes us happy and sticking to that while we're here to enjoy it. One day, when you're gone, whether 2 photos were copied or 102 won't really matter. Do the watermark, or don't. Report the slug or not. Do what makes you happy and know that your posting here has certainly made your community of WIX friends happy and, at the end of the day, that's not a little thing, it's something for you to be proud of.

Ken

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"Take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves."

I guess you know when your maturing in life when a good nights sleep (along with an Indiana Pacers win lol) grants you a clearer and calmer mind. That and ridding old habits that a few of you know mean far more to me than a bunch of old photos.

Jack Cook is a dear friend who I'm sure all of us still miss and my simple attempts to post a few photos has always been as a stand in until he decided to come back and do it right. As I've stated before this is just a fun hobby for me and quite frankly I don't lose too much sleep over whom ever decides to do what with photos I post. All of you are correct in stating it's a good thing that people such as us be allowed to see these photos for all of our enjoyment. That's why I do it.

To say I'm a bit annoyed that others pursue profit from my efforts, of course I am, as is Jack and others, but I also don't lose too much sleep over it. If the guy were making thousands and thousands of dollars, of which I wouldn't think so, who knows how I would feel, but as stated here from another poster, anyone with a browser can generate decent quality images off the Internet for free all day. I quite frankly don't care that much. There's many things in life that just aren't right, correct, fair etc. and for me personally I have more meaningful battles to continue to fight.

Waking up this morning to all of you who have chosen to express your views and thoughts is once again humbling and appreciated. I really had no idea that a dude posting a few old airplane photos he scrounges off the Internet, as well as some boring photos of his dad sitting around doing nothing in a Hellcat or Corsair would be of interest and appreciated.

So this is one of the easiest decisions I've had to make in a long time. I've sent a nice, long note to the EBay powers stating how I feel about things and what they may do on their end is up to them. As August has stated (and really what I already knew) is I don't really feel 'wronged' as much as I feel exploited and I don't have much of a right to even feel that way. I've been exploited before over things much more important and valuable that in reality never amounted to much Anyway. So not too much of a problem here either.

I got my answers and responses I was looking for in this thread (sorry if I exploited some of you folks for those answers )

As long as you guys still have an interest, I'll continue to try to generate some interesting threads. But you have to promise you won't waste your hard earned money purchasing photos that I'll be happy to give you for free. After all they really belong to all of us. Well kind of anyway. (And I stole a bunch of J Cook's photos that I'll sell to you for cheap too) lol

Edit: not to confuse the matter, but as most of us know, or should know, there are indeed many legitimate vintage photo enterprises that do buy and sell photos responsibly and professionally which usually consist of 'original' material and not copies of copies. My comments are not directed towards those folks.

I find this site to be a very interesting study in human behavior almost as much as I find it a valuable asset for knowledge and input regarding old airplanes.

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Zero Surprise!!...

Two can play that game. Perhaps everyone should buy the cheapest thing avilable from the ebayer, then post negitive comments and ratings. It doesn't take many to drop their seller rating and drive buyers away from them.....

Drama. People who are going to do that kind of thing are going to get their pictures from somewhere anyway,if not WIX. Your nobility is noted, but in the end the only people that will be missing your postings are the ones that enjoy them so much on this website (myself included). The world is not the way it used to be, like it or not its pretty much a free for all if you are going to put pictures on line without a watermark or a name attached.

Yah!! you have it spot on correct about unneeded drama, maybe what I should do is start my own Ebay account and have of all the images the other guy has and post them for sale at 5 cents a pop with all proceeds to go to WIX. Put him out of business lol.

Or just forget about it all together. decisions, decisions ....

Actually if it weren't for the fact that there are many folks here on WIX that deserve to see these old photos and use them for constructive purposes, I would probably just pack it in. The whole purpose of this thread was to inform you and hear some feedback, which was very informative and constructive indeed. Much thx again.

BTW I choose not to watermark or reduce the size and pixel rate of photos I post for the simple reason I believe you guys deserve to see these photos in the best quality I can provide. It would defeat the whole purpose of why I post them to do otherwise. But now I see this is the chance I must choose to take in doing so. No matter as life goes on.

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Zero Surprise!!...