THUNDER OVER MICHIGAN 2013

[Boeing666]

With the upcoming and all but done sequestration. Looks like there will be more time for warbirds with no t-birds

While I would love to see all warbird action without Thunderbirds taking away from that time lets remember a few things with this sequestration...

A. It hurts Thunder Over Michigan in terms of attendance being down - I may be selfish in thinking great less people to get in the way of me taking pictures of planes on the ground, less crowds coming in and out of parking lot etc. Lets look at this in the long run. Drawing those huge crowds helps bring money in so they can pay for the gas of these exotic warbirds we want to see.

B. I am personally pissed about the Sequestration. This means that MacDill Airshow in Florida and other base airshows (Selfridge already cancelled) will be cancelled this year - as an airshow fan that sucks. I love to see the modern military demos and heritage flights - well those are gone. This also means probably no modern stuff on display. I personally like sitting along Ecorse Rd on Friday watching F-18s, E-6, C-2s, C-130 etc arriving.

C. As much as I have seen the Thunderbirds and that they could be a deterant to me going to some shows - like TOM, TICO - it sucks to see them pretty much grounded. They are a very important part of the airshow circuit and non warbird airshows. I basically would be seeing them at at least 3 shows this year - TICO, Sun N Fun and TOM. This could be the end of these demo teams - Blue Angels, Thunderbirds - I am not going to get on a political rant right now. We really don't have any civilian jet teams. Black Diamond Jet team hasn't been flying more than 2 aircraft since midway through last year and they have been pretty much contracted with Draken International to fly A-4, Mig-21 as agressors for training fighter pilots (would be cool if they could bring their planes up). Starfighters Inc is pretty much only going to fly one ship at TICO - so what do we have for jet teams anymore?

[Xray]

For the record, Selfridge cancelled the show months ago before this "sequestration" kicked in.
Said it was for operational reasons, not sure if their A-10's deployed or what.

[Boeing666]

For the record, Selfridge cancelled the show months ago before this "sequestration" kicked in.
Said it was for operational reasons, not sure if their A-10's deployed or what.

True. I was thinking maybe they had jumped the gun knowing this was coming up. If they hadn't, then there is a good chance they would after March 1.

I was looking forward to MacDill this year - supposed to have the F-22 and they usually have good static displays with some rarer type military planes and choppers. They haven't officially cancelled but they put a warning on their website that with sequestration they probably would on March 1.

Sequestration is the worst thing for airshows yet to happen overall. I don't see it benefitting TOM (certainly not moneywise). I don't see a ton of warbird owners jumping in. Ideally it would be great for more warbirds to show up and fill in the spots where the T-birds would have been. However at the most maybe the Vietnam segment will go a couple minutes longer. As someone else said - we'll probably get the same T-6s/Harvards just doing extra passes and orbits instead. This also means no heritage flights (which are better than orbitting T-6s) and probably no static displays.

All the other (non warbird airshows) are going to suck. Its going to be shows full of just aerobatic planes, no military jets - some might luck out and get a jet warbird doing a couple passes and very minimal static displays.

[Xray]

For the record, Selfridge cancelled the show months ago before this "sequestration" kicked in.
Said it was for operational reasons, not sure if their A-10's deployed or what.

True. I was thinking maybe they had jumped the gun knowing this was coming up. If they hadn't, then there is a good chance they would after March 1.

I was looking forward to MacDill this year - supposed to have the F-22 and they usually have good static displays with some rarer type military planes and choppers. They haven't officially cancelled but they put a warning on their website that with sequestration they probably would on March 1.

Sequestration is the worst thing for airshows yet to happen overall. I don't see it benefitting TOM (certainly not moneywise). I don't see a ton of warbird owners jumping in. Ideally it would be great for more warbirds to show up and fill in the spots where the T-birds would have been. However at the most maybe the Vietnam segment will go a couple minutes longer. As someone else said - we'll probably get the same T-6s/Harvards just doing extra passes and orbits instead. This also means no heritage flights (which are better than orbitting T-6s) and probably no static displays.

All the other (non warbird airshows) are going to suck. Its going to be shows full of just aerobatic planes, no military jets - some might luck out and get a jet warbird doing a couple passes and very minimal static displays.

That was me who said that ,,, I can only take so many Texan passes before I reach for a bologna sandwich. No offense, I love all military aircraft, just some more than others. Jets are exhilarating, loud, fast. They had 106's at Selfridge when I was a kid, and those sleek birds hooked me quick on jets. Then they advanced to Phantoms, I must have been under 100's of take off & landings, never could get enough. Not only airshows, I'd go out on random days and spend the whole day at the end of the runway.
They actually used to have flag competitions there called Wolverine Flag, you talk about a non stop jet extravaganza, that was it.
Non stop action, all day long. A dozen Phantoms would take off, followed by an AWACS and 6 F-15's. 4 F-14's would land, then 8 Harriers would take off, followed by 6 RAF Tornadoes, then 4 A-6's and a pair of F-111's. Everything in the inventory in the mid 80's except heavy bombers, they were probably in the game but didn't come close to the base itself. Went like that all day long, sometimes I think I dreamed that, but I was there many days soaking it all in.

Michigan is virtually a demilitarized no fly zone compared to most of the country, there is Selfridge, and thats it. [Battle Creek is technically still an ANG base, I think their inventory could practically be counted on 1 hand]. Used to have 4 SAC bases, obviously those are long gone. Wasn't too pleased when they transitioned to A-10's from F-16's, but then they started talking about shifting those out, and basically closing the base.

Only saw the F-22 once, that was in Battle Creek 2 years ago. They were supposed to have a 22 demo at the last Selfridge show, but thats right around when they grounded the fleet ,, So I'm not to optimistic about seeing that bird at any more shows the way things are going. Without the TBirds BC might as well cancel, all they have usually is aerobatic prop acts.
Very galling to see the government hand out taxpayer $$ hand over fist to foreign governments all over the world to keep their military & populations propped up , while we are so broke that we can't even run airshows anymore.

[wendovertom]

If any show can make it happen without any Modern military support I think that TOM can. It has a long history of good shows and I think will be able to pull it off this year.

In regard to the sequestration issue - I personally think that Congress is so absorbed in self rightiousness that they will not be able to avoid hitting the wall for at least a month or two. Even if they do pull something out of the hat I think that any military open house in 2013 will be cancelled - the USAF has already issued directives that non-essential flying is to be cut and specifically mentioned air show support. The Navy said a similar thing but did not mention air shows specifically. Basically, IMHO, all you will see at air shows this year will be vintage aircraft or civilian jet teams (i.e. The Patriots) which is not a bad thing it will just be very different than we are used to seeing.

Tom P.

[Mudge]

If any show can make it happen without any Modern military support I think that TOM can. It has a long history of good shows and I think will be able to pull it off this year.

In regard to the sequestration issue - I personally think that Congress is so absorbed in self rightiousness that they will not be able to avoid hitting the wall for at least a month or two. Even if they do pull something out of the hat I think that any military open house in 2013 will be cancelled - the USAF has already issued directives that non-essential flying is to be cut and specifically mentioned air show support. The Navy said a similar thing but did not mention air shows specifically. Basically, IMHO, all you will see at air shows this year will be vintage aircraft or civilian jet teams (i.e. The Patriots) which is not a bad thing it will just be very different than we are used to seeing.

Tom P.

That's OK by me...

Mudge the propeller fan

[kalamazookid]

Too bad about the Thunderbirds and potential sequestration problems. Even though I'm not a huge fan of the modern jets, the general public is. I just hope this doesn't mean the beginning of the end for shows that rely on military aircraft to draw crowds. Like it or not, the general public pays more of the bills than us prop-heads. I'd hate to see shows go under because of this. I will miss the heritage flights a LOT. Sad to think that those may be a thing of the past. The first time I saw a USAF Heritage Flight was at the airshow in Muskegon, MI when I was about 8 or 9 years old- Ed Shipley flew "Big Beautiful Doll" in formation with an F-15, and the Air Zoo Tigercat and Corsair were in the air with a pair of F-18s at the same time. One of the coolest sequences of flying I've ever seen. Seeing a heritage flight NEVER got old.

On the other side, maybe this will lead to more bookings for vintage jet owners. I see that Warbird Heritage Foundation is going to be bringing the A-4 and F-86 as far as Winston-Salem this year (about a two-hour drive for me! ) and it looks the MAM Me 262 is going to be making a few appearances this year. Maybe shows will look to the vintage jets to bring the noise and we'll see increased appearances from F-86s, T-33s, Skyhawks, the Collings F-4, the F-100s, MiGs, etc. Not an L-39 fan, but maybe those types of teams will see more bookings as well.

As for Thunder... I just hope it doesn't turn into the Gathering of Little Red Pitts Specials and Legends. I can do without those. Mike Goulian will be a nice addition, but I hope shows like Thunder don't have to trend towards filling more time slots with these types of acts. Those shows are a dime a dozen. Big-time warbird shows like Thunder are not.

Hoping for an updated aircraft list soon. Coming up on that time where I need to get my time-off requests in and would like more info to be able to make a final decision.

[k5083]

Maybe the US could invite military acts from our more fiscally sound international friends to fill the bill.

Brazil's military display team had to cancel its visit last year because of its own financial problems. But there must be other countries that could arrange a visit during the summer.

It would give us some variety, too. I would rather see a Tornado or Eurofighter demo than another Heritage/Legacy flight.

China has a jet display team, doesn't it? (Actually it has 3 of them! -- well, 2 jet and 1 still flying CJ-6s) It would be awesome to see formation acro by Chengdu J-10s, and they're the ones we owe all this money to. We totally should invite them over.

We could even do a Commie Legacy Flight with one of the J-10s and somebody's Chinese-built MiG-15 or 17.

August

[DaveG]

We could even do a Commie Legacy Flight with one of the J-10s and somebody's Chinese-built MiG-15 or 17.

August

[Flyin Illini]

There was some people posting on Facebook asking for mig-23 pilots. Supposedly looking at the possibility of bringing the two seat mig-23 to TOM

[Boeing666]

There was some people posting on Facebook asking for mig-23 pilots. Supposedly looking at the possibility of bringing the two seat mig-23 to TOM

There are some Mig-21s available. I seen 2 of them sitting at Lakeland along with an A-4 in Soviet colors owned by Draken for aggressor training. Draken is basically what the Heavy Metal Jet Team/Black Diamonds became with many of their pilots going to that organization.

Supposedly one of the days at Sun N Fun Draken is going to fly some of its A-4s and maybe its Mig 21s.

TICO is going to have at least 4 classic jets flying at its warbird airshow even if the T-birds don't show up.

Starfighters Inc F-104
Valiant Air Command's F-86 Skyblazers (usually flown by Dale Snodgrass)
private owned A-4 (supposed to do heritage with Corsair)
L-39 (in Blue Angels livery)
also it is likely a T-33 will fly in the show as it usually does


I don't really need a full military demo, however the military pilots do need training and getting flight time. I don't see why they couldn't detour on the way to their destination (like bombing range, another airport etc) to some airshows and do a few passes. They could give airshows 3 passes - flat high speed, dirty pass then a banana pass before heading onto their next destination.

Supposedly one of the days at Sun N Fun Draken is going to fly some of its A-4s and maybe its Mig 21s.

TICO is going to have at least 4 classic jets flying at its warbird airshow even if the T-birds don't show up.

Starfighters Inc F-104
Valiant Air Command's F-86 Skyblazers (usually flown by Dale Snodgrass)
private owned A-4 (supposed to do heritage with Corsair)
L-39 (in Blue Angels livery)
also it is likely a T-33 will fly in the show as it usually does

Love the classic vintage jets mentioned (with the exception of the L-39!). I had heard that Draken may fly an A-4 or more at Sun 'n Fun but not sure about the MiG-21's.

Couple correcetions on the TICO information. The "Skyblazers" F-86 has not flown since the 2010 show and is still grounded after an attempt to start it up last fall. The VAC hopes to work on it this coming year and with luck it may be ready to fly in the 2014 show. And although Doug Matthews did fly T-33's there the last couple of years (and the "old" BDJT and Dale Snodgrass flew a T-33 there last year), I don't believe there is any confirmation of a T-33 flying there next month. But I would not not mind seeing one there again at all.

[Boeing666]

Supposedly one of the days at Sun N Fun Draken is going to fly some of its A-4s and maybe its Mig 21s.


Love the classic vintage jets mentioned (with the exception of the L-39!). I had heard that Draken may fly an A-4 or more at Sun 'n Fun but not sure about the MiG-21's.

Couple correcetions on the TICO information. The "Skyblazers" F-86 has not flown since the 2010 show and is still grounded after an attempt to start it up last fall. The VAC hopes to work on it this coming year and with luck it may be ready to fly in the 2014 show. And although Doug Matthews did fly T-33's there the last couple of years (and the "old" BDJT and Dale Snodgrass flew a T-33 there last year), I don't believe there is any confirmation of a T-33 flying there next month. But I would not not mind seeing one there again at all.

I was just at Valiant Museum on Friday and spoke to a couple of the workers. They said that all the problems are fixed and it will be flying this show. They also said the C-47 Tico Belle will be flying but it still has its left propellor off in the maintenance building.

Fence Check is reporting that Doug Matthews is going to be there on their calendar page for TICO. Fighter Factory is supposed to be there too, but don't see which planes they are bringing.

[Boeing666]

I haven't heard this yet for anything in Michigan and not sure how much it would effect Thunder Over Michigan (beside T-birds not coming or military statics) but is the YIP Willow Run tower a part of the 100 towers across the US that are getting closed if Sequestration were to take place? My home airport ORL where I work tower is one slated to be closed as will as TIX (TICO Valiant Air Command Airshow) and LAL (Sun N Fun) are also planned on being closed. I don't think it would effect the Valiant Air Command Airshow in terms of the tower being closed but I think it would really effect the Sun N Fun fly in if there was no one to control all of those aircraft.

Does the tower at Willow Run have much communication with the performers at TOM or does the air boss handle all of that?

[Xray]

Good question Boeing, never thought of the tower angle.
I'm not qualified to answer with any precision, but from going to the show for years, airboss freq is dominant during shows. As most know, Metro airport is located just 10 miles or so down the road, I am guessing they have a say in any traffic in the area, and of course route all aircraft clear of Willow on show days. [I lock out any Metro freqs during shows in order not to get saturated with routine civilian comms that have no bearing on the show].