new medal created by pentagon for drone pilots

[tom d. friedman]

just saw on the world news that the pentagon is issuing a new medal for drone pilots / operators for meritorious service of drones regarding important or significant mission goals & achievements. the new medal will rank between the silver star & bronze star medals. long over due & glad to see that this semi new military professional segment is being recognized. what is your opinion?? are drone specialists pilots?? or the latter??

[b29flteng]

As a combat veteran, the ranking of the medal is a bunch of horse hockey. A drone pilot has NOT put his butt on the line like a combat veteran has. Next they will get a PURPLE HEART for spilling hot coffee on themselves while flying a drone from an air conditioned office in Las Vegas.

[Big Daddy]

As a combat veteran, the ranking of the medal is a bunch of horse hockey. A drone pilot has NOT put his butt on the line like a combat veteran has. Next they will get a PURPLE HEART for spilling hot coffee on themselves while flying a drone from an air conditioned office in Las Vegas.

This^^^^^

Reminds me of the medals/trophies kids win in all of the role-playing/first-person shooter video games and about as valuable IMHO. I think this is an insult to all real combat pilots who actually risk their lives in the line of duty and to all veterans. Next thing you know, the media will be calling them "heroes".

[Randy Haskin]

I think this is an insult to all real combat pilots who actually risk their lives in the line of duty and to all veterans.

Lots of the guys flying RPAs and eligible for this medal, should their actions warrant it, are "real combat pilots who [have] actually risked their lives".

I have a good number of ex-squadronmates with whom I flew into this with in 2003...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLWakcUp43Q

...and who now fly RPAs. These are bona-fide combat veterans who have faced actual enemy fire before.

I'm a combat veteran who has been scared sh*tless a good number of times under enemy fire in two different combat theaters, and I'm nowhere near 'insulted' by this.

[Mark Allen M]

Does being rewarded with a medal in the Military for a job well done mean one must risk their life doing so? Are medals only handed out to those for outstanding performance in harms way. Promotion in rank is usually given for good duty performance, ribbons usually given for theater service and medals for risk of life while serving above and beyond the call of duty?

While I'm well aware there is much more to it than I just stated, I'd like to hear some additional rationale as to why some may feel there needs to be some sort of exposure to actual combat to qualify for a Military medal. Above and beyond the call of duty is still the same no matter where your sitting isn't it?

I'm no expert on the matter, just wondering.

[shrike]

Does being rewarded with a medal in the Military for a job well done mean one must risk their life doing so? Are medals only handed out to those for outstanding performance in harms way. Promotion in rank is usually given for good duty performance, ribbons usually given for theater service and medals for risk of life while serving above and beyond the call of duty?

While I'm well aware there is much more to it than I just stated, I'd like to hear some additional rationale as to why some may feel there needs to be some sort of exposure to actual combat to qualify for a Military medal. Above and beyond the call of duty is still the same no matter where your sitting isn't it?

I'm no expert on the matter, just wondering.

I believe the primary complaint about the medal as announced is not it's existence, but rather it's placement between the Bronze and Silver Stars, both of which do require personal contact with he enemy for award. There are any number of other awards that do not require the level of personal exposure, but all of them 'rank' much lower.

Trying not to take anything away form the RPV pilots or their utility and service, but a pilot whose mission involves personally flying in the aircraft, with the possibility of injury or death at every stage of the sortie, up to and including the possibility of capture, torture and execution in the event of that mission going completely pear shaped. operates at a greater level of risk than the pilot of a drone in a remote and relatively safe location, where loss of the aircraft is only a financial and operational difficulty.

For a further comparison, wars have always been won or lost in the field of logistics. The planner in the rear area organizing supply for a campaign may have a greater influence on the success or failure of the mission than the poor ba$tard unloading a truck under fire, but he is not, and should not be, eligible for combat awards of any sort, no matter how great his contribution.

[muddyboots]

I think this is an insult to all real combat pilots who actually risk their lives in the line of duty and to all veterans.

Lots of the guys flying RPAs and eligible for this medal, should their actions warrant it, are "real combat pilots who [have] actually risked their lives".

I have a good number of ex-squadronmates with whom I flew into this with in 2003...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLWakcUp43Q

...and who now fly RPAs. These are bona-fide combat veterans who have faced actual enemy fire before.

I'm a combat veteran who has been scared sh*tless a good number of times under enemy fire in two different combat theaters, and I'm nowhere near 'insulted' by this.

Randy, it's silly to compare your time in a combat zone to your time in a drone cockpit. The reason you get the V on your Bronze Star is because your life was at risk. At no point do you or any of your friends risk your lives while driving the drones. So at no point should your awards or rewards be placed over my own for what I did and received when I was in a combat zone. This medal, now earned by a guy sitting on his tush, flying an aircraft a zillion miles away, is insulting. If your actions in theater warranted a medal, you should have got it then, not now, for basically playing a video game in an air conditioned room with a pepsi in your lap. You know I love, admire, and appreciate you, but in this I think you are wrong.

I agree that there should be an award for it. It should be about the level of an AARCOM, Maybe an AAM. And it should certainly not be placed above the Bronze Star with a V device. The only reason this was done was to help convince pilots to become pilots, when the real cockpit time pilots are getting is growing less and less as the drone force ramps up. Can't convince people that being a drone pilot is as cool as being a fighter pilot if you don't give them awards saying it's cooler, can you?

[Mark Allen M]

I believe the primary complaint about the medal as announced is not it's existence, but rather it's placement between the Bronze and Silver Stars

Ah yes! correct you are and I would tend to agree with the resentment towards this particular medal's placement among the Military's medals scale. (even though I have never had much interest in trophy's, medals, awards or accolades of any type, and I've had a few in my day, usually for some silly sporting event or Architectural design, and yah I know! doesn't rank with this conversation, and shouldn't) But I do think there should be some sort of award for valor if you happen to be sitting behind a computer and happen to save a platoon of muddyboots in the field with a well placed explosion on top of bad guys. Just as I should get a medal sometimes for spending too much time posting old airplane pictures for you crazy warbird enthusiasts. lol

Can't convince people that being a drone pilot is as cool as being a fighter pilot if you don't give them awards saying it's cooler, can you?

Chicks may dig it if you embellish it enough ... ... question: do drone pilots wear flight suits too? lol

[muddyboots]

You're right, Mark. There should absolutely be an award for those guys piloting drones who save a bunch of grunts in a jam. But should it be higher than that of the grunts in the jam? After all, they're the ones risking it...I wholeheartedly agree with the award, just not it's placement in the awards scale. Mind, I never believed (still don't) that the awards I got were deserved. The Army back then had a habit of giving ribbons out just so they wouldn't rot in storage...Not so much now. Now if you get one, you've got huevos made of bronze and probably some stitch marks., or maybe two bolts sticking out of your neck...

The whole awards system needs a relook. Plenty of people have been in combat units (platoons or companies or just been in serious combat) and not earned a CIB because their MOS wasn't infantry. That one bugs me a bit. I guess it's just that infantry still has a certain risk to it that other duties don't carry as often. Medics, after all, get rotated to garrison or rear echelon duties, as do radiomen. Not so the simple grunt.

[Mark Allen M]

Apologies for slamming this topic around a bit this morning, but I find this thread to be very interesting. Serious question: Does it really matter where and how you do it, to go above and beyond the call of duty, to save lives of good guys and defeat bad guys, to possibly be awarded the MOH? ... example: what if some day there happens to be one of those "video game" type superstars who is now a drone jockey and can fly a drone through a building open window and out the other without a scratch, and he saves the day for a bunch of trapped whom evers. If this dude goes way above and beyond the call (as it could be defined by the MOH rules for awarding) why wouldn't he/she be eligible for the MOH. Just hypothetical of course. Don't slap me too hard if I'm way off base here lol

And Muddy, your the real deal and you earned everything you were given, and earned a lot more you weren't given. Your one of those rare few people that the words "Thank you" never seem to go far enough or mean enough. I'll be seeing you in Chino in May

[b29flteng]

Well stated Muddy!

Yes Mark, the drone pilots do wear flight suits in the event the office they sit in catches fire and to attract "chicks" at the "O" club (the cool factor ).

[Randy Haskin]

Randy, it's silly to compare your time in a combat zone to your time in a drone cockpit.

I wasn't. I was replying to the ridiculous elitist statement Big Daddy wrote. To imply that these RPA pilots are somehow lesser people because their current work doesn't put them in harm's way is asinine. I was pointing out that many of these RPA pilots have previously flown manned fighters and flown in real combat against real threats. They're perfectly aware of the difference between what they did previously and what they're now doing.

Either way, a medal that nobody has even been awarded yet that these guys are eligible for doesn't "insult real combat pilots". I'm one -- I'm not insulted. Many of them are "real combat pilots", too, and none of them are insulted. "Real combat pilots" will be able to look at a guy's chest and tell the difference between this medal and a BSV, a SS, a DFC, or whatnot.

This medal, now earned by a guy sitting on his tush, flying an aircraft a zillion miles away, is insulting. If your actions in theater warranted a medal, you should have got it then, not now, for basically playing a video game in an air conditioned room with a pepsi in your lap.

Your "video game" statement is asinine. Being out of physical danger does not make the risks of their actions any less. It is absolutely, positively no "video game" to those guys. Their decisions are just as life-and-death for the guys they support on the ground as the decisions many of those guys have made in their A-10s/F-16s/F-15Es over the battlefield at other points in their career. Fratricide and death are no less emotionally painful 6,000 miles away as they are 100m away.

Furthermore, how is it "insulting"? Nothing about an award that you are not even eligible for insults your service or anyone else's.

[muddyboots]

All right, you're right. It isn't a video game-- for the guys that the pilot, sitting in an air conditioned room, with no chance of being injured himself, is flying cover for. For the pilot behind the stick though, it's certainly not equal to the risk involved, or deserving of any award equal to or greater than, the guys who are placing their lives on the line physically.
If it's not a video game, it's the next best thing. Plenty of personal security, literally no personal physical consequence to one's actions, and the ability to walk away from it at any time if you become unable to continue. Again, the guys on the ground can't just look over at their replacement and ask him to step in for a minute while they take a leak.

I agree that the stakes are high. For who? Sure, if you screw up you can end up with PTSD, heck, even if you don't screw up you can end up with PTSD. But again, the guys on the ground can end up with PTSD, brain damage, missing limbs, or just dead. Surely the two are not equal. Surely the guys taking the real risks don't deserve to have their awards placed below that of someone who is flying a drone five thousand miles away?
Awards at and above the level of the Bronze Star with the V should only be awarded if one's physical well being is at stake. Because it is being given to those who aren't risking their lives for others means this new award has downgraded mine to mean jack doodly. How is that NOT insulting?

It goes against the very reason the Bronze Star was created in the first place:

The Bronze Star Medal was conceived by Colonel Russell P. "Red" Reeder in 1943, who believed it would aid morale if there was a medal which could be awarded by captains of companies or batteries to deserving people serving under them. Reeder felt another medal was needed to be a ground equivalent of the Air Medal, and proposed that the new award be called the "Ground Medal".[4]
The idea eventually rose through the military bureaucracy and gained supporters. General George C. Marshall, in a memorandum to President Franklin D. Roosevelt dated 3 February 1944, wrote
The fact that the ground troops, Infantry in particular, lead miserable lives of extreme discomfort and are the ones who must close in personal combat with the enemy, makes the maintenance of their morale of great importance. The award of the Air Medal has had an adverse reaction on the ground troops, particularly the Infantry Riflemen who are now suffering the heaviest losses, air or ground, in the Army, and enduring the greatest hardships.
The Air Medal had been adopted two years earlier to raise airmen's morale. President Roosevelt authorized the Bronze Star Medal by Executive Order 9419 dated 4 February 1944, retroactive to 7 December 1941. This authorization was announced in War Department Bulletin No. 3, dated 10 February 1944.

Again, I don't have anything against you receiving an award for piloting a drone. But not one higher than the lowest one earned for people who are in close personal contact with the enemy. It is absolutely demeaning to those who do. Of course, the AF acts like the Bronze Star is an AAM, so why not dump this new award on top of it? It was never meant to be anything but an award for front line duty, but the V device was later added so that REMFS could get it too, and act like what they had done was somehow comparable to front line service, where again, one can die. The military has long had a history of devaluing awards by making up new ones to reward the good old boy network, sounds to me like this is just another example of it.

In 2012, the U.S. Air Force alleged that two of its female airmen were subjected to cyber-bullying after receiving Bronze Star Medals for meritorious non-combat service. The two airmen had been finance NCOICs in medical units deployed to the War in Afghanistan and received the medals in March 2012. The awards sparked a debate as to whether or not the Air Force was awarding too many medals to its members, and whether the Bronze Star should be awarded for non-combat service.[5] This prompted the Air Force to take down stories of the two posted to the internet, and to clarify its criteria for awarding medals. The Air Force contended that meritorious service awards of the Bronze Star outnumber valor awards, and that it views awards on a case-by-case basis to maintain the integrity of the award.[6]
However, this is not the first time that the USAF has come under fire in the past for offering this award. The Department of Defense investigated the award of the Bronze Star Medal (BSM) by the USAF to some 185 individuals after operations in Kosovo in 1999. All but 25 were awarded to officers, and only 1 in 10 of those awarded were actually in the combat zone. Five were awarded to officers that never left Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri. During this campaign, the Navy had awarded 69 BSMs, and the Army with 5,000 troops in neighboring Albania (considered part of the combat zone) awarded none.[7] In the end, there was a Pentagon review and decision by Congress to stop the awarding of Bronze Stars to personnel outside the combat zone.

[muddyboots]

Apologies for slamming this topic around a bit this morning, but I find this thread to be very interesting. Serious question: Does it really matter where and how you do it, to go above and beyond the call of duty, to save lives of good guys and defeat bad guys, to possibly be awarded the MOH? ... example: what if some day there happens to be one of those "video game" type superstars who is now a drone jockey and can fly a drone through a building open window and out the other without a scratch, and he saves the day for a bunch of trapped whom evers. If this dude goes way above and beyond the call (as it could be defined by the MOH rules for awarding) why wouldn't he/she be eligible for the MOH. Just hypothetical of course. Don't slap me too hard if I'm way off base here lol

And Muddy, your the real deal and you earned everything you were given, and earned a lot more you weren't given. Your one of those rare few people that the words "Thank you" never seem to go far enough or mean enough. I'll be seeing you in Chino in May

Mark, to receive the MOH one has to be in direct combat. It has been given out for people who weren't, but the regulation was amended to state that it can't be earned unless someone is shooting at you.

[Randy Haskin]

If it's not a video game, it's the next best thing. Plenty of personal security, literally no personal physical consequence to one's actions, and the ability to walk away from it at any time if you become unable to continue. Again, the guys on the ground can't just look over at their replacement and ask him to step in for a minute while they take a leak.

Please, stock the dick-measuring between deployed ground forces and RPA operators.

Nobody is equating them and their physical risk. That being said, it is phenomenally ignorant to think that, because they are 6,000 miles away from the battlefield and not physically at risk from enemy fire, it means they are not intellectually or emotionally engaged with fighting the battle and ensuring friendly lives are saved. I can tell you that as a CAS pilot, I have never been under more stress than when I was strafing Danger Close with both the friendly and enemy forces both visible through my dime-sized gun pipper, while streaking toward the dirt at 480 knots. Nobody was shooting back, but the knowledge that a muscle twitch was the difference between killing the bad guys and killing the good guys made it just as stressful as when I actually was dodging AAA or SAMs.

If you haven't experienced it, you probably can never understand it. I have had squadronmates who killed friendlies in error, and they were emotionally scarred for life over their mistake -- it is something I never, never, never want to experience for myself. That stress exists regardless of if you are physically in the aircraft or not: if it is your actions that are determining the outcome, then physiologically the reactions in the human mind and body are the same.

If you don't like the precedence of the medal over the Bronze Star, then that is an issue with a General officer sitting at the Pentagon somewhere -- NOT with the guys in flight suits trying desperately to give good support to ground forces. I assure you it is not those pilots who are trying to make themselves more important, and the decision wasn't theirs to make.

We who directly support ground forces with fires, recce, intel, and a host of other services see it as the highest honor to defend those ground forces' lives and ensure their safety. If your anger over some certificate and a piece of ribbon on someone's uniform requires you to denigrate those people, then I suggest your anger is wildly misplaced.