Warbird Information Exchange

I rarely go to Oshkosh anymore (stopped by last year quickly before heading to Europe), I rarely go not because of who and what shows up or not, not because of politics, changed rules, increased costs to attend, who's complaining about who or what or why ... it's because I can't sleep under the wing of my dad's Swift with him any longer

IMHO Oshkosh doesn't need to change a thing, it's not a perfect event, never has been, never will be and as the usual story goes ... If you have more than one person, but less than three people, involved in anything, there's a good chance two of those people are going to complain about something.

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“Knowing what’s right, doesn’t mean much unless you do what’s right.”

To respond to an earlier comment about it paying to win Grand Champion or not. Grand Champion can pay, though indirectly. There is a reason that Eric Rearwin displayed his Rearwin there and had it judged. To help it sell. I suspect Walt Bowe did the same thing with the Laird he had there last year because it recently sold also. Pitcairn Autogiro, same thing.

Antique Grand Champion means a plane will sell for more money, faster, or both and the restoration shop can get free advertising also. Some owners may just want bragging rights or to expose the plane to as many people as possible in order to promote aviation history. I suspect these benefits apply to Warbirds also based on the mention of Oshkosh awards in sales ads.


Mark, Agreed with your comments. So sorry to hear about your Dad. I still get to camp under the wing with my Dad almost every year and I do not look forward to the day when that stops.

This has been a very civil debate thus far, and I would like to express my appreciation for that- I do hope that's a trend we see more of here on WIX.

A lot of folks are conflating two entirely separate issues here with regards to Jerry bringing KA114 up there... there is an emotional component, and a business component. The emotional side appeals to pride and a sense of obligation to a community (he should go to win Grand Champion, he should bring it because KA114 would be the star of the show, etc). Jerry is a businessman first and foremost, however, and Dave Homewood has come closest to identifying what I believe is the real issue here. The Mosquito will doubtless be a headliner wherever she goes, and if she were announced for Oshkosh, you can bet your ar$e the EAA would heavily advertise the fact with the expectation that many people would be willing to part with their hard-earned cash for the opportunity to see KA114. So there's a clear economic benefit to EAA having the Mosquito in attendance, but there is no corresponding economic benefit to Jerry for bringing it. He has his own private air force (and God bless him for it!! ), and hosts numerous events through the year including an outstanding multi-day WWII-themed show in May, so emotive arguments really hold no sway in this regard. There's no quid pro quo... EAA gets the benefit of having the Mosquito as a headliner at it's show entirely for free (from their point of view), while Jerry has to unilaterally shoulder all the costs involved simply for the "privilege" of displaying his most recent acquisition... and that's just not a sound business decision. If there were some effort to simply offset the costs involved to bring the aircraft up, I suspect the decision might go a different way, but that's simply a guess, nothing more or less, and we've already determined no offset would be forthcoming anyways.

Please understand that I am in no way casting dispersion on the EAA, nor am I suggesting they have to change their business model- it has clearly worked for them for a very long time, and I consider both Zack Baughman and Chris Henry to be great friends. EAA clearly has outstanding people working for them, and I am very pleased with their recent change in management which has apparently brought a desperately needed breath of fresh air to the organization. My aim here is simply to illustrate that there is a business element to these decisions, and from a business perspective, the balance sheet is too heavily weighted in EAA's favor in this regard.

Cheers,

Lynn

+1, it's nice to see on WIX.

Very interesting conversation. Good one

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“Knowing what’s right, doesn’t mean much unless you do what’s right.”

Yes, the civil debate is great!

I personally don't think the issues are mixed up and Mr. Yagen should or should not do anything. It is his decision based on the monetary or otherwise benefit, or not, to him. If one really wants to see the Mosquito at Oshkosh, maybe contributing to a sponsorship is the way to go. Ironically, that would make the visit to Oshkosh more expensive for the supporter. Or maybe he could offset his costs a bit by giving rides like FIFI.

Of course it would be promoted but I don't see the clear economic benefit to EAA. How about EAA just agree to not promote the Mosquito? With no data to back it up, but Mr. Yagen very likely does not have data either, I expect that it would have a negligible effect on attendance. At most, people will go this year instead of next or vice versa. Sort of like my really regretting that the one year I had to miss Oshkosh, Race 74 was there.

I say this because if they are mainly going because of the Mosquito, other than a few drive in's from the local area, why couldn't those people go more easily and cheaply to a local airshow where that Mosquito is paid to go? That is what I will do if I decide I have to see it.

PS- if it is all business, what was his reason for taking the Dragon Rapide to Oshkosh? I did appreciate the nice airshow watching shade it provided and he seemed to be enjoying it also but that was probably just an extra perk.

PPS- I am not trying to cast stones. I hope to have the same cost benefit dilemma in the future, go where they pay me or Oshkosh. Then I suspect I will still go to Oshkosh, even if it is in a non-show plane or via Airline, and will take the headliner plane to the paying show. If I am so lucky...

I've been to Osh 12 or 15 out of the last 19 years and have never made plans to attend or not based on what aircraft would be showing up. Sure, it was nice to see the Concorde, SS1, Fifi, and the Shackleton, but with or without any of those aircraft, I'd have been there anyway. I'd bet 99% of the folks in attendance are the same, because Oshkosh isn't the only opportunity to see these aircraft, and because, with or without those extremely rare aircraft, there is still more to see or do than I can manage in a week.

I have just been thinking about this. Someone mentioned that if Jerry doesn't want to pay, and the EAA doesn't want to pay, then the answer is sponsorship. It sounds like a great plan.

I don't think that this sponsorship should fall on the shoulders of Avspecs as has been suggested however as it will look like they are buying their award that they will inevitably receive.

But actually this country, New Zealand, has developed an absolutely amazing warbird and classic restoration industry considering the small size of the nation. A huge amount of what they produce is for foreign customers, such as Jerry himself. The various workshops have top reputations for quality and skill, and I firmly believe that Avspecs lead in that respect not just in New Zealand but around the world. The types of projects being done are also "high end" projects, some of them most daunting to the average warbird restorer - the Mosquito being a prime example.

So in terms of sponsorship, to get this kind of export product on show at what is probably the world's best place to show off that skill, quality and determination, I think that a principle sponsor should be the New Zealand Government. They should step up here and use one of their many funds that are in place to promote New Zealand business to the world. They do it for wool, meat, yachts, films like Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, music, wine, rugby, fashion, and all sorts of other areas of excellence where New Zealand does well. They are always funding companies and trade groups to attend conventions and events inthe USA, China, Korea, Europe, Britain, South America and anywhere else that might potentially buy our products. Sometimes the funding runs into millions of kiwi dollars!

So why not shill out to help promote the New Zealand restoration scene?

The precision engineering industry that puts these aircraft back into the air, and attracts more customers to bring their funds to New Zealand with future projects should be acknowledged and capitalised on. Right now there's no better opportunity, virtually everyone in NZ has been talking about the Mossie, they have seen it on TV, and at events around the place. And we also know that the world has been abuzz about it. People here are very proud that two small kiwi companies, Mosquito Aircraft Restorations and Avspecs, plus all the subsidiary companies around the nation that have contributed parts - from radiators to resin cannons - have done something the rest of the world thought couldn't be attempted. The public will, I'm sure, be happy to see our Government fund the trip to put the kiwis firmly on the map at Oshkosh rather than miss out on such exposure and potential awards.

Could the member here who works with Jerry perhaps suggest this to him?

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Really interesting idea Dave!
There is no question that N.Z. has a huge ratio of vintage A/C to population. as well as the world class restorations to back it up.
These kinds of projects take ingenious creativity and gumption that Kiwis have demonstrated repeatedly.
Kudos!
I see no reason why Gerry Yagen (look at the initials on KA114) would not be in favour. That is if he doesn't have other commitments on the date.

Andy Scott