Liberty Belle B-17 fire question

[maxum96]

Little bit about me. I'm a 16 year veteran police officer. Because of my job I've been to tons of fires. My dad was a career 35 year firefighter with a major city. My brother is a firefighter with the same city I work for. No way in the world would those firefighters not have tried to put out that fire on the B-17 if they would have had a chance. While it may look like ambivalence to the layman when they don't put water on a fire. It's usually a cause of strategy. I've seen photos of where they tried to drive firetrucks out to the B-17 and they promptly sunk into the mud.

A burning aircraft loaded with av gas will take lots of water and foam to extinguish. Most firetrucks carry only a few hundred gallons of water on board and maybe a little foam. Do you know how fast they can use up that water? Ever watched an aircraft or large truck burning while firefighters were actively trying to put it out? It takes time and thousands of gallons of water and tons of foam.

If anyone thinks those firefighters callously let they fire burn needs a dose of reality.

[cooper9411]

Little bit about me. I'm a 16 year veteran police officer. Because of my job I've been to tons of fires. My dad was a career 35 year firefighter with a major city. My brother is a firefighter with the same city I work for. No way in the world would those firefighters not have tried to put out that fire on the B-17 if they would have had a chance. While it may look like ambivalence to the layman when they don't put water on a fire. It's usually a cause of strategy. I've seen photos of where they tried to drive firetrucks out to the B-17 and they promptly sunk into the mud.

A burning aircraft loaded with av gas will take lots of water and foam to extinguish. Most firetrucks carry only a few hundred gallons of water on board and maybe a little foam. Do you know how fast they can use up that water? Ever watched an aircraft or large truck burning while firefighters were actively trying to put it out? It takes time and thousands of gallons of water and tons of foam.

If anyone thinks those firefighters callously let they fire burn needs a dose of reality.

I agree 100%!!!!

[GARY HILTON]

Too bad there wasn't a fire base near-by to send a tanker load of borate......just a wishful thought......

[airnutz]

Too bad there wasn't a fire base near-by to send a tanker load of borate......just a wishful thought......

I don't think they've used borate for about 50 years now, though the term "borate bomber" persists...but I get your drift and wish the Belle could've recieved a heavenly quenching as well.

They found borate was toxic to animals and inhibited regrowth of the forest after the fire, IIRC.

[JimH]

There are numerous scenarios on how this day could have played out. Fortunately, nobody got hurt. Coulda, shoulda landed next to the road (imagine if they needed an ambulance or EMTs)? Maybe back at the airport (which by google earth showed 7 miles). We discussed this at length during our ground school last January. Doesn't matter now, everyone got out ok. The remains are next to KPWK in a salvage yard. We were parked right across the street during our visit this summer.

JH

[Sgt13Echo]

I'm not a fireman or a pilot so forgive me if this comes across as naive. But, since the fire trucks could not drive out to the plane and spray water or some fire retardant on the plane why didn't people grab shovels and start throwing dirt on the fire? They had a lot of it around them and the plane.

Sorry, if that sounds stupid.

[P51Mstg]

Dirt isn't going to do much.. The fire wasn't on the ground, it was elevated on the airplane which is 3 dimensional and you can't for example get dirt inside a closed wing. Not to mention that there were burning fluids which wouldn't be put out.

Last, I'll be it was hotter than a mutha..... near the plane, you aren't getting near it with out protective gear....

Mark H

[Chuck Giese]

Man, I go out of town for the weekend to volunteer with the movie Memphis Belle, and come back to a rehash of last summer

First, I'd like to thank the mods for the removal of the inflamatory (pun intended) troll comment. As Scott said earlier, the NTSB has not released their report, so any and every claim as to knowledge of the cause of the fire is based on pure speculation.

When Vlado flew over the site, I was on the ground helping with the recovery. When the Liberty Belle landed, it was very soft and muddy. By the next morning, when we got the heavy recovery equipment to the site, the fire and the natural drainage had dried the field out sufficiently to allow us to work. (BTW, the two trucks that did get stuck were pulled out the first day by the farmers tractor.)

Do I wish they had put the fire out - yes. But even at the time I understood that they were trained professionals doing their job. Over the years I've come to realize that more times than not, the pros know better than I how to do their job.

Like most of the people in the aviation business, I'm waiting for the NTSB report to come out. Then we learn what we can and move on.

All in all, I'm ok with the way it turned out.

PS: JimH - The remains are now in Georgia (with the exception of the outboard wings, which are coming back this month.) It looks like the pictures you shot through Fries' fence were taken after our second recovery trip.

[JimH]

@Chuck...shot them in August of 2012.

JH

Last edited by JimH on Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Chuck Giese]

I forgot to add the following links. These are the ones that I check periodically to see what stage the investigation is at:

NTSB Current Investigations: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/current.html

NTSB Aviation Investigations Nearing Completion: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/InvestRel.aspx

(Since it may be considered a major investigation, the findings could be discussed during a NTSB Board Meeting, information at: http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events.html

Lastly, the aviation accident synopsis: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/month.aspx

[Sgt13Echo]

Mark H.

Thank you for the reply, I was hoping that shortly after the landing when the fire was small the dirt could have helped, but your probably right. As you can see from my Avatar that's Liberty Bell in the background two weeks before her accident. When I saw it in the news, it felt like losing a family member and it still hurts to see those pictures of her in that field. The main thing to take away is that she landed safely and no one was seriously hurt (physically).

[airnutz]

That's Liberty Belle in the background, but still a beauty by any other name.

[Noha307]

Thanks for the photos of the Liberty Belle's current condition.

I talked with one of their people when the Memphis Bell came to Cincinnati. When I asked about what survived, the one thing I remember him telling me was that both the waist guns and the ball turret were found in good condition sticking muzzle down into the field. Apparently, when the airframe around them melted they just fell right out and stuck in the field - the structure of the aircraft melting at a lower temperature than what the turret or guns do. (I'm no metallurgist, but I feel like Aluminum melts at a lower temperature than just about any other metal. I think he said the turret is made out of cast iron. Any idea if this is correct?)

The trucks would have gotten stuck in the field if they had tried to go out to the airplane. At least one was stuck trying it.

Hadn't heard that they attempted to drive the firetrucks onto the field. It makes me feel a lot better to know that they actually tried. (Not that I still doubt they acted incorrectly. I have to admit though, I initially thought they did.)

There always will be an element of coulda, shoulda, woulda involved in these sort of things. I feel like we got the most reasonable outcome we could hope for. I think I remember hearing somewhere that they got the bird on the ground in just over 1 minute - that's the real piece to take away from the incident.

[maxum96]

I think he said the turret is made out of cast iron. Any idea if this is correct?)

Nope. Cast iron would be incredibly heavy. The were made out of cast aluminum.

[Dave Homewood]

A couple of random questions here, what distance was it away from the aircraft that the fire appliances got bogged down? I take it that it was quite a distance and too far to roll out the hoses all the way? (I have no doubt at all that the fire crews did their best, and I am not trying to second guess them at all, just curious on the distance).

Also, in the photo posted earlier in the thread, quoted below, is that the remains of a crop circle on the ground in front of the wreck?